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Hillary clinton today implicitly criticized the Bush administration for "downgrading the role of arms control" in teh middle east peace process. Seems that if we just took their guns them there Israelis and Islamic fellas would just love each other. God help us.
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we should travel the world preventing states from haveing defense programs?sigpic -
Why not, we do the same thing when countries attempt to have any type of nuclear program yet me sat back and spent $52 billion on ours this year.
Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace. -- James Madison
The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (Pearce and Hale, eds., Boston, 1850)Comment
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Day...
Which would you rather have? A proliferation of AK's or a proliferation of Nukes. Also part of that 52 billion IS to curtail proliferation. We certainly don't use all of it for new research, only a modest amount in fact. While a good majority is to go to stockpile stewardship.
-bixSure I work on Guns ; 105, 120 and 155mm. There was that 20" though.Comment
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To tell you the truth I believe that most of the "omg Iran is trying to build nukes" BS is just that, BS. Its used to instill fear in the public to help build a case for war against Iran in the future. For one thing Iran has no ICBMs, and the missiles they have tested barely work at best. Do you really think Iran would try to make nukes and then use them? They know they would get wiped out by not only us but China, Russia, Pakistan and possibly India too since they'd be receiving quite a bit of the fallout. Believe me, Iran is not dumb.Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace. -- James Madison
The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (Pearce and Hale, eds., Boston, 1850)Comment
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You're so full of fail it's pathetic.
Shahab-3, -4, -5, already capable of throwing a suitably-sized payload all the way to Israel / Moscow / Eastern Europe. The -5 will cover all of continental europe. This missiles are all Iranian mods of Nork designs which themselves are offshoots of Soviet early ICBMs. They exist NOW.
IRan's own leadership has exhibited the gaseous uranium enrichment hardware suitable for producing sufficient fissile material for a weapons program.
Iran has deliberately contracted with Russia for a 'Heavy' nuclear reactor, obstensibly for energy production in the nation with a huge oil and natural gas reserves. A 'Light' reactor has the same power output, but doesn't have weapons-grade material as a waste product.
Iran's own leadership has voiced their willingness to sacrifice their own entire population, if they can destroy Israel in the bargain. The Imams / Mullahs that actually run Iran consider it a sure path to their heaven to do so, and thus no sacrifice.
None of this is 'fear-mongering' or trumping up anything.
You're so blinkered by your screwed-up politics that you reflexively ignore these realities - or worse yet are completely and complacently unaware of them, because your ideological lights decline to acknowledge or report on them. But the info is all there for anyone with the self-honesty to look for it themselves.Comment
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It's silly to not be in the arms business. If we don't sell nations arms, the Russians or Chinese will. It's nothing more than free trade. We make some of the best weapons in the world, why shouldn't we take advantage of that when dealing with foreign nations as trading partners?sigpic "On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed"
"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785
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Iranian missiles
Shahab-3 missile range, the shortest reach they have
Their nuke plant
Their enrichment program
Prior President of Iran flat out stating they should nuke Israel
They've run their own military equipment / missile parades thru Tehran with signs hanging on them promising the destruction of Israel.
You quite simply don't know what you are talking about, JDay.Comment
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Fate, we almost never sell that stuff at a profit, at least not in the manner you infer. It's not like Norinco or the Russians.
It's usually 'special deals' as part of an aid package or trade deal. And quite often with it comes to first gen Abrams tanks and the like, it's sold off at a savings as it's cheaper than shipping it home and it's obsolete to us.Comment
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The -5 doesn't even exist, its a rumored future missile. However you're correct about the -4 which I forgot about, it has a range of around 1500km. They could hit Israel with it but that would be suicide, their neighbors who have nukes would hit them back since they do not want the fallout. Like I said it is very unlikely that Iran would use nukes. Btw, I'm sure you agree that citizens should be able to arm themselves, why shouldn't other countries be able to arm themselves to the same level as other countries? Just like during the cold war it makes use of those weapons much less likely. It is also highly unlikely that if given all the materials to create nuclear weapons that Iran has the engineering knowhow to build one. Its a little more complicated than just grabbing plans off the internet. Was a similar case with Iraq, it was said that even if they had everything to build one they were at least 20 years away.Last edited by JDay; 01-14-2009, 5:00 PM.Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace. -- James Madison
The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (Pearce and Hale, eds., Boston, 1850)Comment
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Iran has avowed the destruction of Israel. Their current leadership is just extreme enough to try it, should they get the capability.
Aside from Israel, only 1 of Iran's "neighbors" has nukes - Russia. Israel isn't even a neighbor, there are other countries in between. And Israel isn't even a confirmed nuclear state, though they likely built a few in partnership with South Africa back in the '70's.
As for "MAD", or the idea of "mutually assured destruction", this doesn't work if one side believes they will be going to see Allah and 72 virgins following their nuclear Armageddon martyrdom.Comment
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Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace. -- James Madison
The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (Pearce and Hale, eds., Boston, 1850)Comment
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