THE ULTIMATE PROBLEM that both we and anti's face

[tanks]

What makes you think people that commit mass murders based ON FAITH are mentally ill? They have a different belief system then ours.

When we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima do you think the pilots were mentally ill? They were serving their country based on their belief system, to many others it was mass murder (even today) by the USA.

Psych tests are not going to stop Jihadists or people like Manson devotees.

[geoint]

Guys it's not about guns. Mandatory psych tests is really just a back door way to create high paying jobs for useless liberal arts majors and steal more money from conservatives. Lol

[tanks]

...
When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
...

In Orlando they were 3 hours away.

[L84CABO]

I don't want to lose my rights, but how long will they last with the Orlando's and Sandy Hooks on the rise.

Your rights damn sure won't last at all if you continue to capitulate and surrender them for solutions that won't work. Liberals will NEVER stop. Because reasonable gun control is not what they want. They want them all. As soon as they get an assault weapons ban, they will remember that a pistol was used to kill 32 people at Virginia Tech and then they'll correctly realize that a pistol could just as easily killed 49 people in a night club, so turn them in because LIBERALS!...and why does anybody need an evil death spewing pistol?

I guarantee you that once they get psych evals they will be back to say that's not enough and we need something else.

You can't even get a freaking carry permit in the state of California in any of the major cities and you want to add a pysch eval to the mix? Sorry...but not one more damn inch!

Liberals, in some ways, are exactly like terrorists. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be negotiated with. They have zero interest in fair, reasonable, compromise, or facts. Stop trying to appease them! And stop trying to solve a TERRORIST problem with more gun control!

[DDM4556]

I agree with OP in the sense that we do need to actually find a solution to the underlying issue. The problem with that is its already illegal, making more laws doesn't do much at all except infringe upon the layman's rights.

Another issue is we have so many legal and illegal guns, around the world, that restrictions on purchase do nothing, as anyone determined to commit such heinous acts will be willing to straw purchase or seek out some gang members. Back to the point of not being able to legislate the problem away.

Reporting your neighbor/spouse/coworker/etc, WILL be abused. It will cost way more to everyone than the few people that could be saved.

I don't have a solution to the problem, other than to say "carry everywhere". The world is a dangerous place. We have a right to keep small arms equal to modern militaries, for defense of the nation/people and whatever else we want them for. Hunting is NOT a right enumerated in the Constitution. The RKBA is.

The other issue that we face, is even if EVERY single firearm just disappeared, mass killings would take place with cars, knives, lead pipes, bombs, whatever else you can think of. Crazy/malicious people will still do whatever they want. Which goes back to not solving the underlying problem.

I think the best solution we have is for every good citizen to own and know how to use weapons, and carry them everywhere. As well as knowing your neighbor/spouse/coworker/etc... look for those warning signs, changes in behavior, etc. Approach the situation with tact and regard for their rights. Maybe they just need some help, or maybe they need to get locked up. Knowing your fellow citizens is the real prevention.

Then there's terrorism... respond with overwhelming firepower and judicious marksmanship. Give them a new hole for each virgin.

Bottom line: you can't legislate the problems away and you are responsible for your own safety, but as a good citizen you should help other good citizens.

All excellent points. Thank you.

[DDM4556]

Guys it's not about guns. Mandatory psych tests is really just a back door way to create high paying jobs for useless liberal arts majors and steal more money from conservatives. Lol

Don't be silly. The tests will be sent and evaluated overseas to save money...

[DDM4556]

What makes you think people that commit mass murders based ON FAITH are mentally ill? They have a different belief system then ours.

When we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima do you think the pilots were mentally ill? They were serving their country based on their belief system, to many others it was mass murder (even today) by the USA.

Psych tests are not going to stop Jihadists or people like Manson devotees.

Agreed. This was brought up prior as well. Its a good point, but the fact remains that not all shootings are terror inspired. Some are merely just lunatics giving in to violent urges. Virginia Tech, Colorado, Sandy... We can't stop every tragedy, but it would be nice to cut the number down.

[DDM4556]

Your rights damn sure won't last at all if you continue to capitulate and surrender them for solutions that won't work. Liberals will NEVER stop. Because reasonable gun control is not what they want. They want them all. As soon as they get an assault weapons ban, they will remember that a pistol was used to kill 32 people at Virginia Tech and then they'll correctly realize that a pistol could just as easily killed 49 people in a night club, so turn them in because LIBERALS!...and why does anybody need an evil death spewing pistol?

I guarantee you that once they get psych evals they will be back to say that's not enough and we need something else.

You can't even get a freaking carry permit in the state of California in any of the major cities and you want to add a pysch eval to the mix? Sorry...but not one more damn inch!

Liberals, in some ways, are exactly like terrorists. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be negotiated with. They have zero interest in fair, reasonable, compromise, or facts. Stop trying to appease them! And stop trying to solve a TERRORIST problem with more gun control!

You're missing the point of the thread. Its not about a test. Its about addressing the common denominator and brainstorming any possible way to remove or improve the problem. No one is trying to "appease" the senseless liberals. So no need to yell...

You're right about liberals and their obvious agenda. But I'm tired of losing the battle for rights based on the actions of a few insane people.

Terrorism is and will always be a different entity, like gang violence. We'll always be the target of attacks but it would be nice to reduce the non-terror related shooting in between.

[DDM4556]

OP: Your question is basically where do we draw the line on how mentally ill a person have to be before we take away your right to buy a gun? Surely we don't ban people with mild anxiety disorder from owning a gun, but we definitely don't want someone with schizophrenia who hears voices telling him to kill everyone to have a gun. Where do we draw the line?

California ALREADY decided a line for this. In this state, we draw the line at being put on a 5150 (72 hour psychiatric hold). If you are on a 5150, you are banned from gun ownership for 5 years, unless you can explain to a judge why it was a mistake.

I think this is an excellent line, because for the most part, "normal" people don't end up on a 5150. Sure, there are exceptions, there are rare instances of angry exes trying to get even but for the most part, myself and my family and friends have never been on a 5150.

On the other hand, this law is NOT ENFORCED. How do I know? I'm a psychiatrist. I used to work at a psych ER. I once had a guy dragged who admitted to me that he has a shotgun. I informed him of California's 5 year firearms prohibition for persons placed on a 5150. I asked the sheriff who brought him in if anyone is going to his house to confiscate his shotgun. The sheriff LITERALLY shrugged his shoulders at me and told me they don't have the manpower for that kind of BS.

I also did my residency at the VA. I had a veteran with severe PTSD in my outpatient clinic who was placed on a 5150, sent to the VA inpatient psych unit, then released. The police again did not bother to confiscate his weapons. Later he had a PTSD fugue, thought he was back in Iraq, and shot and killed an elderly couple in his apartment complex.

That is why I LAUGH at California's gun laws. Politicians keep piling on the gun laws to make it sound like they're doing something, and to get votes. However it's only the law-biding anxious gun owners who are bending over backwards trying to figure out how to comply with all these ridiculous laws, when the actual laws that sort of make sense remain completely unenforced. That double-murder could have been prevented if our current laws were enforced. The politicians need to work on enforcing EXISTING gun laws.

Thank you for sharing. I really appreciate your insight. Sorry you have to live with the knowledge of the murders. You did everything you could to prevent them. For that I am deeply appreciative.

In a way, your post coincides with what my point is - that insanity is the underlying common factor among many murders and mass shootings. In your case you made a decision to prevent a tragedy. Due to law enforcement's failure, that tragedy was not averted.

This thread is about those very people. Perhaps you're absolutely right. There may be no better way of dealing with the problem than to better enforce our current laws.

But I felt the topic was worth discussion. Thanks again.

[speedrrracer]

The mental health issue is nice, and good to see work happening there, but 99.9 etc% of all mentally ill people will never shoot anything.

Same with muslims in America. In not a fan of them being here, but the facts are that there's about 3 million of them, and 99.9 etc% of them are not going to shoot anyone.

Same with guns. There's hundreds of millions of them in the hands of tens of millions of people, and 99.9 etc% of them will never shoot anyone.

So what does that show us? It shows us that we don't have any good evidence indicating the root cause. OK, so what about the whining, hand-wringing progtards tearing their hair out that we must "do something"?

We have to start from the very bottom (if we want to do something). Personally, I don't think it's money well spent, because there's a good chance we won't find out any helpful information, and because these "mass shootings" are such a statistical anomaly that objectively they're really not worth the public's money, but given the level of hysteria they create, you might reasonably consider spending the time and money, especially if you're a politician trying to placate your constituency.

You'll have to start dozens of research programs across multiple disciplines, and you'll have to fund them for years, maybe decades. Even then, you won't have an answer, but MAYBE you'll have an idea where to focus research for the next decade or two. And I mean real research, not this "gun violence research" stupidity that CA is doing, where they're assuming they know the answer before they even do the work.

After all that time and money, maybe, just maybe, you'll have something. I'm personally dubious, but obviously can't deny it's possible such a massive endeavor could yield tangible results. It's the only approach that has a chance, that's for sure.

[madjack956]

All of these tests and checks are ridiculous.

If you truly want to live as free men then you have to be willing to suffer the consequences of that freedom.

There will always be an evil/crazy person about. You have to deal with that on an individual basis or go about doing it the way we have and slowly keep losing freedoms.

[DDM4556]

http://psychcentral.com/lib/what-is-...al-assessment/



The "results" of psych evals are merely the opinion of the evaluator. I don't think that a fundamental, enumerated constitutional right should be granted or denied based solely on a hypothesis formed by a government employee with unknown or even questionable ability to predict future behavior.

Furthermore . . .



And finally . . .



So where would we draw the line? How much "testing" do you propose?

Agree with all points. Psych testing is not accurate enough as I eluded to in my original post.

As I've said in subsequent posts, this thread is not a test or no test thread. Merely a discussion thread for a serious problem that there may or may not be a solution to.

[DDM4556]

The mental health issue is nice, and good to see work happening there, but 99.9 etc% of all mentally ill people will never shoot anything.

Same with muslims in America. In not a fan of them being here, but the facts are that there's about 3 million of them, and 99.9 etc% of them are not going to shoot anyone.

Same with guns. There's hundreds of millions of them in the hands of tens of millions of people, and 99.9 etc% of them will never shoot anyone.

So what does that show us? It shows us that we don't have any good evidence indicating the root cause. OK, so what about the whining, hand-wringing progtards tearing their hair out that we must "do something"?

We have to start from the very bottom (if we want to do something). Personally, I don't think it's money well spent, because there's a good chance we won't find out any helpful information, and because these "mass shootings" are such a statistical anomaly that objectively they're really not worth the public's money, but given the level of hysteria they create, you might reasonably consider spending the time and money, especially if you're a politician trying to placate your constituency.

You'll have to start dozens of research programs across multiple disciplines, and you'll have to fund them for years, maybe decades. Even then, you won't have an answer, but MAYBE you'll have an idea where to focus research for the next decade or two. And I mean real research, not this "gun violence research" stupidity that CA is doing, where they're assuming they know the answer before they even do the work.

After all that time and money, maybe, just maybe, you'll have something. I'm personally dubious, but obviously can't deny it's possible such a massive endeavor could yield tangible results. It's the only approach that has a chance, that's for sure.

Well said. Good points.

[zuchaka]

https://youtu.be/l8rMYyegT5Y

^ this is part of the problem the way the media covers spree shootings, course the left gets super pissed when I point this out....the media are practically civil rights heroes in their eyes.......

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Dietz

[zuchaka]

http://www.parkdietzassociates.com/threat-assessment-group-tag/

Most spree shooting are work place associated, when bush was in the White House TAG was brought in etc.