THE ULTIMATE PROBLEM that both we and anti's face

[DDM4556]

Disclaimer: This thread is not to instigate arguing. The intention of this thread is to have a mature and open minded conversation on the biggest gun problem we are facing as a country.

In light of the tragedy or Orlando, as well as the long list of other mass shootings, it seems very clear to me that both we and anti's face the same ultimate and reoccurring problem: guns in the hands of the mentally unstable.

Whether its someone who struggles with violent thoughts and urges, or someone who has decided to devote their life to radical religion, the underlying causes to these mass shootings is always the same - there is nothing preventing insane people from owning guns.

This is a problem we ALL face, regardless of which side of the 2A line we stand on. Mass shootings fuel the anti's fire for logic-less gun control while simultaneously making it harder for us to preserve our constitutional and inalienable rights.

I don't have a solution for this problem The obvious thought is requiring psychiatric exams for all people prior to purchasing guns. This makes some sense to me. The difficulty I see would be agreeing on and approving one exam for all people of different regional and cultural backgrounds. The second would be the argument that our best tests are still too archaic to make accurate conclusions. Just as people can pass lie detectors, people will surely be able to pass psychological evaluations.

The easy way to look at it is - if such screenings save even one life, they were worth it. The other side is, what if those same screenings mistakenly prevent a responsible owner from defending his life.

The only solid conclusion I have at this point is that if we can keep insane people from legally acquiring guns, we will successfully reduce mass shootings and subsequently reduce the senseless and deceptive arguments for gun control. Acquiring guns illegally would be the only option for the mentally maladjusted. And that's the police's jurisdiction.

So what do you think? Is my assessment of the ultimate problem wrong? Does anyone have any interesting hypothetical solutions?

[357manny]

i am having this argument with my buddies now. it's a slippery slope, tests can be passed, some of the most diabolical minds are also the smartest. i am not so sure if mental stability can really be tested for.

honestly, i don't think tests for mental stability could have stopped the colorado theater shooter, the isla vista shooter, or the gay club shooter. these are all guys that were able to purchase guns, had run ins with police (actually I don't know about colorado guy), and passed because they could lie and hide their sick sadistic criminal side.

[Lonestargrizzly]

Run them through scenarios. See how they handle things?

[rodneyb]

What would the test consist of? If it was just another hoop to jump through and $25 to spend, like the firearms safety certificate simple multiple choice quiz, would it really do any good? I dont know much about psych testing but it seems a test that could really provide value might be quite involved. Also, true crazy's with a total lack of conscience are really good manipulators.

[-hanko]

A terrible idea, imo.

An army officer got through the army psych test with no issues and shot up his post claiming allegiance to the religion of "peace".

Evil and evil actions cannot be prevented. Just the way it is. You can play the "I really don't mind..." Pollyanna crap "if it just saves one life" all you want, but I doubt that would a major obstacle for a psycho intent on destruction.

[Epaphroditus]

Nope. Gang killings got the numbers over the crazies along with General mayhem.

Crazies get the emotional driven headlines.

We are being manipulated.

Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk

[dustoff31]

A terrible idea, imo.

An army officer got through the army psych test with no issues and shot up his post claiming allegiance to the religion of "peace".

Evil and evil actions cannot be prevented. Just the way it is. You can play the "I really don't mind..." Pollyanna crap "if it just saves one life" all you want, but I doubt that would a major obstacle for a psycho intent on destruction.

Yeah. And the kicker? He was a Psychiatrist.

[jeremiah12]

Whether its someone who struggles with violent thoughts and urges, or someone who has decided to devote their life to radical religion, the underlying causes to these mass shootings is always the same - there is nothing preventing insane people from owning guns.
...

The only solid conclusion I have at this point is that if we can keep insane people from legally acquiring guns, we will successfully reduce mass shootings and subsequently reduce the senseless and deceptive arguments for gun control. Acquiring guns illegally would be the only option for the mentally maladjusted. And that's the police's jurisdiction.

You state there is nothing preventing insane people from owning guns and then go on to suggest that keeping the insane from legally acquiring guns will successfully reduce mass shootings and arguments for gun control while at the same time stating the insane can still get their guns illegally.

If one wants to get a gun without going through a background check or jumping through any other legal hoop, it is very easy to do. There is the build your own option and this has the advantage if you have evil intentions to inflict maximum death and injury in that you can build a fully automatic weapon that would have done a much better job than the weapon the Orlando shooter used.

Quality 3-D printers will soon be available at affordable prices making the DIY option even easier.

There is always the black market. Our war on drugs has been so successful, :face palm: just go to the local drug dealer. He can usually put you in contact with someone who will sell you a gun if he cannot sell you one himself. As a high school teacher with students from ghetto areas, I have students that can set me up with a black market gun if I wanted. They are much cheaper than from a FFL.

I guess you have not been keeping up with the news lately, there have been a lot of smash and grab burglaries of gun stores, another popular way to get free guns.

There is the ever popular using a straw purchaser. This can be promoted by paying the straw purchaser to buy the gun for you. One can also buy their guns from a private party in a free state and never have to go through a background check.

Of course, if you are the Feds, you purposely sell to the criminals and call it an investigation; Fast and Furious.

Then do yourself a favor and go talk to some antis, preferably at a time when there are no mass shootings in the news driving an antigun debate. I have done this many times and have learned that many are just afraid of guns, period. Because they are afraid of guns and believe the Hollywood hype they see on TV and in movies, they are sure all guns are magical killing machines. All you have to do is pull the trigger and the bullet will seek out the nearest person like a heat seeking missile. Whenever a non-gun person picks up a gun, they freeze or the gun gets used against them.

Antis believe guns are so complicated that no body can make one in their garage. So if we just made them all illegal, they would disappear and nobody would commit crimes with guns. It also matches up with their view of humans, they like to see humans as basically good. It is objects that tempt humans to do bad things.

Politicians just play the game to get elected. The ones spouting the anti rhetoric were elected from districts with a large proportion of antis and were elected based on being anti. Most would switch their position overnight if something happened to cause the voters to change. If say, a week from now a group of radical muslims attempt to attack several places at once similar to the Orlando nightclub. This time, 9 of the 10 attackers were killed by people with CCWs before they could even kill a handful of victims at the different sites, and the 10th one was caught by LE before he could get to his destination.

Then there was a huge outcry for nationwide CCW and an anti was running against an opponent that was for unrestricted CCW. The anti's poll numbers plummet and the election is close and all she has to do to win is vote for the CCW legislation. There is a good chance she will vote for it. She will give a speech stating she saw the light and realized how wrong she was.

I have been around long enough to know, the antis do not want to compromise. They say compromise but mean give us this today and we will be back tomorrow asking for the next step until we get what we want, a total and complete gun ban. We do not care about the Constitution, it is just a meaningless piece of paper that is outdated.

[rodneyb]

You state there is nothing preventing insane people from owning guns and then go on to suggest that keeping the insane from legally acquiring guns will successfully reduce mass shootings and arguments for gun control while at the same time stating the insane can still get their guns illegally.

If one wants to get a gun without going through a background check or jumping through any other legal hoop, it is very easy to do. There is the build your own option and this has the advantage if you have evil intentions to inflict maximum death and injury in that you can build a fully automatic weapon that would have done a much better job than the weapon the Orlando shooter used.

Quality 3-D printers will soon be available at affordable prices making the DIY option even easier.

There is always the black market. Our war on drugs has been so successful, :face palm: just go to the local drug dealer. He can usually put you in contact with someone who will sell you a gun if he cannot sell you one himself. As a high school teacher with students from ghetto areas, I have students that can set me up with a black market gun if I wanted. They are much cheaper than from a FFL.

I guess you have not been keeping up with the news lately, there have been a lot of smash and grab burglaries of gun stores, another popular way to get free guns.

There is the ever popular using a straw purchaser. This can be promoted by paying the straw purchaser to buy the gun for you. One can also buy their guns from a private party in a free state and never have to go through a background check.

Of course, if you are the Feds, you purposely sell to the criminals and call it an investigation; Fast and Furious.

Then do yourself a favor and go talk to some antis, preferably at a time when there are no mass shootings in the news driving an antigun debate. I have done this many times and have learned that many are just afraid of guns, period. Because they are afraid of guns and believe the Hollywood hype they see on TV and in movies, they are sure all guns are magical killing machines. All you have to do is pull the trigger and the bullet will seek out the nearest person like a heat seeking missile. Whenever a non-gun person picks up a gun, they freeze or the gun gets used against them.

Antis believe guns are so complicated that no body can make one in their garage. So if we just made them all illegal, they would disappear and nobody would commit crimes with guns. It also matches up with their view of humans, they like to see humans as basically good. It is objects that tempt humans to do bad things.

Politicians just play the game to get elected. The ones spouting the anti rhetoric were elected from districts with a large proportion of antis and were elected based on being anti. Most would switch their position overnight if something happened to cause the voters to change. If say, a week from now a group of radical muslims attempt to attack several places at once similar to the Orlando nightclub. This time, 9 of the 10 attackers were killed by people with CCWs before they could even kill a handful of victims at the different sites, and the 10th one was caught by LE before he could get to his destination.

Then there was a huge outcry for nationwide CCW and an anti was running against an opponent that was for unrestricted CCW. The anti's poll numbers plummet and the election is close and all she has to do to win is vote for the CCW legislation. There is a good chance she will vote for it. She will give a speech stating she saw the light and realized how wrong she was.

I have been around long enough to know, the antis do not want to compromise. They say compromise but mean give us this today and we will be back tomorrow asking for the next step until we get what we want, a total and complete gun ban. We do not care about the Constitution, it is just a meaningless piece of paper that is outdated.

Agree 100% sir. Still working on how to articulate my thoughts ^that well.

[LowThudd]

However, the Orlando terrorist DID go through a medical/phsych exam as part of his becoming a security personel. That did not work.

Hawaii has a similar policy in place already before gun purchase, most people hate it.

[L84CABO]

Um...not no...BUT HELL NO! If I'm a legal US citizen who has never run afoul of the law with no history of mental issues it is...and I will type this slow so you understand...MY RIGHT TO OWN A FIREARM! Psychological evaluation! ARE YOU INSANE!? (Pun intended)

Who is paying for that on top of how expensive guns and ammo are? How often will I need to be retested and at what cost? Do we even have enough doctors to support this? How will this be tracked and managed? What happens if I'm having an off day or the doctor is having an off day and deems me unfit?

And most importantly...what happens to the poor person that truly needs a gun but is killed while they're waiting for their psych test? We've already had people killed while they were trying to get a LTC permit. Remember now, by your own logic if even one person's life can be spared by NOT having to get a psych eval it will be worth it.

Stop trying to legislate evil! It can't be done. Evil will always find a way to get a gun, bomb, jet liner, whatever! This was not a freaking mass shooting and it is not a freaking gun control issue...but way to buy into what the president and media are pushing. This was a terrorist attack on our own soil. Calling it a mass shooting would be like calling WWII an "altercation!" IT WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK! And when you're attacked by terrorists, you most certainly do not surrender your rights for laws that bad guys won't follow! And you damn sure don't make it harder for people to defend themselves.

What the hell would a psych eval done to stop this guy? He was vetted countless different ways and interviewed by the FBI twice. You don't think the guy could have kept his crap together to pass a psych test? Please!

You want solutions here? Take the damn gloves off, toss out the rules of engagement and let slip the dogs of war. Let the military go in and do what needs to be done. Also get rid of the damn gun free zones and let Americans be able to defend themselves.

[DDM4556]

Um...not no...BUT HELL NO! If I'm a legal US citizen who has never run afoul of the law with no history of mental issues it is...and I will type this slow so you understand...MY RIGHT TO OWN A FIREARM! Psychological evaluation! ARE YOU INSANE!? (Pun intended)

Who is paying for that on top of how expensive guns and ammo are? How often will I need to be retested and at what cost? Do we even have enough doctors to support this? How will this be tracked and managed? What happens if I'm having an off day or the doctor is having an off day and deems me unfit?

And most importantly...what happens to the poor person that truly needs a gun but is killed while they're waiting for their psych test? We've already had people killed while they were trying to get a LTC permit. Remember now, by your own logic if even one person's life can be spared by NOT having to get a psych eval it will be worth it.

Stop trying to legislate evil! It can't be done. Evil will always find a way to get a gun, bomb, jet liner, whatever! This was not a freaking mass shooting and it is not a freaking gun control issue...but way to buy into what the president and media are pushing. This was a terrorist attack on our own soil. Calling it a mass shooting would be like calling WWII an "altercation!" IT WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK! And when you're attacked by terrorists, you most certainly do not surrender your rights for laws that bad guys won't follow! And you damn sure don't make it harder for people to defend themselves.

What the hell would a psych eval done to stop this guy? He was vetted countless different ways and interviewed by the FBI twice. You don't think the guy could have kept his crap together to pass a psych test? Please!

You want solutions here? Take the damn gloves off, toss out the rules of engagement and let slip the dogs of war. Let the military go in and do what needs to be done. Also get rid of the damn gun free zones and let Americans be able to defend themselves.

This is exactly the kind of attitude I was hoping to avoid here. Try to remember I'm on the same side. You make good points, but there are counter points:

What happens if I'm having an off day or the doctor is having an off day and deems me unfit?

Chances are even on your worst day, you're not certifiably insane. You may be upset but still working with a well adjusted, sound mind. Hypothetically, if such a test were made well enough (I am heavily stressing the word hypothetically) you would have nothing to worry about.
Also, there is no necessity to get doctors involved. A well designed test can be issued and graded in a variety of places which include your LGS.

Evil will always find a way to get a gun, bomb, jet liner, whatever!

Absolutely. But a psych test would help to eliminate one avenue (in this theoretical situation). Some would undoubtedly still pass but a large percentage would fail. Do you think the Virginia Tech shooter would have made it?

This was not a freaking mass shooting...IT WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK!

Yes. A terrorist attack in the form of a mass shooting. The common denominator of all these mass-shooting/terrorist-attacks is a level of insanity. Is it detectable in advance? I don't have the answer. All I can say is the title of the thread - its the ultimate problem.

You want solutions here? Take the damn gloves off, toss out the rules of engagement and let slip the dogs of war. Let the military go in and do what needs to be done. Also get rid of the damn gun free zones and let Americans be able to defend themselves.

100% agree. Living in LA city, I can't get a CCW. If that's not an atrocity, I don't know what is. Its direct a violation of my inalienable rights as a human. But welcome to CA.
As far as the military goes, what do you want them to do? They're operating under a commander in chief who refuses to protect us from terror. Its not like the bad guys are running around with labels on their back.

For the record, and as I ever so clearly stated above, I'm not proposing a solution here. I'm not pro-test. This thread was to see if anyone agrees with the underlying problem and to provide an avenue for people to share any possible ideas on how to deal with it.

I don't want to lose my rights, but how long will they last with the Orlando's and Sandy Hooks on the rise.

[Lonestargrizzly]

First a psych test to get weapons will be instituted, then a psych test to keep your weapons will be next..

[vaka]

Temperament is probably easier to test for than mental stability. How much do you think temperament influences mass shootings?

[DDM4556]

You state there is nothing preventing insane people from owning guns and then go on to suggest that keeping the insane from legally acquiring guns will successfully reduce mass shootings and arguments for gun control while at the same time stating the insane can still get their guns illegally.

If one wants to get a gun without going through a background check or jumping through any other legal hoop, it is very easy to do. There is the build your own option and this has the advantage if you have evil intentions to inflict maximum death and injury in that you can build a fully automatic weapon that would have done a much better job than the weapon the Orlando shooter used.

Quality 3-D printers will soon be available at affordable prices making the DIY option even easier.

There is always the black market. Our war on drugs has been so successful, :face palm: just go to the local drug dealer. He can usually put you in contact with someone who will sell you a gun if he cannot sell you one himself. As a high school teacher with students from ghetto areas, I have students that can set me up with a black market gun if I wanted. They are much cheaper than from a FFL.

I guess you have not been keeping up with the news lately, there have been a lot of smash and grab burglaries of gun stores, another popular way to get free guns.

There is the ever popular using a straw purchaser. This can be promoted by paying the straw purchaser to buy the gun for you. One can also buy their guns from a private party in a free state and never have to go through a background check.

Of course, if you are the Feds, you purposely sell to the criminals and call it an investigation; Fast and Furious.

Then do yourself a favor and go talk to some antis, preferably at a time when there are no mass shootings in the news driving an antigun debate. I have done this many times and have learned that many are just afraid of guns, period. Because they are afraid of guns and believe the Hollywood hype they see on TV and in movies, they are sure all guns are magical killing machines. All you have to do is pull the trigger and the bullet will seek out the nearest person like a heat seeking missile. Whenever a non-gun person picks up a gun, they freeze or the gun gets used against them.

Antis believe guns are so complicated that no body can make one in their garage. So if we just made them all illegal, they would disappear and nobody would commit crimes with guns. It also matches up with their view of humans, they like to see humans as basically good. It is objects that tempt humans to do bad things.

Politicians just play the game to get elected. The ones spouting the anti rhetoric were elected from districts with a large proportion of antis and were elected based on being anti. Most would switch their position overnight if something happened to cause the voters to change. If say, a week from now a group of radical muslims attempt to attack several places at once similar to the Orlando nightclub. This time, 9 of the 10 attackers were killed by people with CCWs before they could even kill a handful of victims at the different sites, and the 10th one was caught by LE before he could get to his destination.

Then there was a huge outcry for nationwide CCW and an anti was running against an opponent that was for unrestricted CCW. The anti's poll numbers plummet and the election is close and all she has to do to win is vote for the CCW legislation. There is a good chance she will vote for it. She will give a speech stating she saw the light and realized how wrong she was.

I have been around long enough to know, the antis do not want to compromise. They say compromise but mean give us this today and we will be back tomorrow asking for the next step until we get what we want, a total and complete gun ban. We do not care about the Constitution, it is just a meaningless piece of paper that is outdated.

All valid points. Thanks for chiming in.

Gang shootings are a bit off topic though as they're a completely different entity and an entirely different problem. Bit I completely agree about the thoughts of the anti's.

I also agree that there are plenty of other avenues to pursue if you want a gun (the street, home build etc...) but those are harder and riskier than walking straight into a store and buying one with the assistance of a sales person.

There is obviously no easy answer - even if we had a magic psych test. But the mental instability is the one common denominator here.