One argument why I am against "common sense" gun control . . .

[IVC]

That's a good chart.

Gun rights ARE a "social freedom" issue, so Democrats are incorrectly painted at the top of the chart.

[IVC]

When a culture acts like animals . . . I am all for allowing them to treat themselves as such. . . .

That's nice, but it (again) avoids the core of the problem - the human rights aspect.

[ar15barrels]

Gun rights ARE a "social freedom" issue, so Democrats are incorrectly painted at the top of the chart.

Democrats can also exist BELOW the center of the chart.
If you have a better political map, please post it...

Perhaps you like this one?

[ordc]

That's nice, but it (again) avoids the core of the problem - the human rights aspect.

I wrote they act like animals . . . Animals have human rights?

These creatures think healthcare, welfare, etc are "rights."

I disagree. You have your opinions. I have mine. Agree to disagree and I suggest you read at least parts of that journal article I posted that gives my point of view objective evidence.


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[morfeeis]

Woman's choice comes when she chooses to spread her legs. Killing an unborn living human is not a choice, it's killing.

And there we have it, while i 100% agree with you i think statements like yours 9and views like mine) are more the point of this thread than a 2a debate...

[readysetgo]

Yeah! Because the natural right to defend life and liberty can't possibly stand on it's own as an issue.

Clearly we need to lump that in with some weird correlation between crushing,vacuuming children and trafficking their body parts, oh sorry...fetus.

I am pro gun, and pro abortion.

Economic studies have shown . . .crime and other societal ills have decreased since the legalization of abortion.

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf

Think your gun rights have been curbed now?! Imagine a world without 40 years of abortions. Yes. I think the term "gun rights" would be laughed at!


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Yeah! If you snuff out enough young, poor blacks (which commit a dispraportionate amount of crime) guess what happens? Crime might go down a little. So, sure, keep on murdering them unborn black babies to improve your society a bit.

I wonder how many abortion clinics are in Beverly Hills? Palo Alto? Ranchos Palos Verdes? Marthas Vinyard?

Who benefits the most from research using baby body parts? Hmm, could it be rich white people that can afford advanced, expensive treatments?

Eugenics is fascinating.

[ordc]

^^^^

Where did race come into play?!

It's cultural.

If I won the lottery, I would buy a nice apartment complex in one of those leftist, super rich elitist liberal communities you wrote. And have people from leftist, super poor, decadent, liberal communities live in there for free for a few years.




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[IVC]

I disagree. You have your opinions. I have mine. Agree to disagree ...

Nobody is denying you the right to your opinion.

There are different frameworks in which an issue can be discussed. The one you use is the one that is convenient for your argument (nothing wrong with that.) I'm pointing out another framework that is much less convenient. I'm not asking you to embrace this other framework, just to understand that your argument is not superior or universal. Instead, it's just a reflection of the framework you chose. A good argument is the one that can be defended properly, not the one that axiomatically reduces to "well, it's my opinion."

You don't have an answer to the question of "when do human rights begin?" (Note that I'm not saying "human life.") That's your prerogative. However, the question is very valid and you're implicitly answering it through your opinion, even if you don't want to say it.

[bohoki]

its a decent analogy about partial freedom vs complete freedom

[readysetgo]

^^^^

Where did race come into play?!

It's cultural.

If I won the lottery, I would buy a nice apartment complex in one of those leftist, super rich elitist liberal communities you wrote. And have people from leftist, super poor, decadent, liberal communities live in there for free for a few years.




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Race comes into play via culture as you say. In crime and abortion. Blacks are disproportionately affected by both. In practical terms, you're pro abortion, you're pro black annihilation.

Oh, you don't like that comparison? Same here with the "2a = abortion" comparisons.

[ordc]

^^^^

I disagree with everything you wrote. It is your opinion. And I have mine that I backed up with a journal article.

Agree to disagree... Peace!





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[ordc]

Nobody is denying you the right to your opinion.



There are different frameworks in which an issue can be discussed. The one you use is the one that is convenient for your argument (nothing wrong with that.) I'm pointing out another framework that is much less convenient. I'm not asking you to embrace this other framework, just to understand that your argument is not superior or universal. Instead, it's just a reflection of the framework you chose. A good argument is the one that can be defended properly, not the one that axiomatically reduces to "well, it's my opinion."



You don't have an answer to the question of "when do human rights begin?" (Note that I'm not saying "human life.") That's your prerogative. However, the question is very valid and you're implicitly answering it through your opinion, even if you don't want to say it.

You have your opinions.

I have mine.

When does life begin and along with those human rights? I say after it is discharged from the hospital after birth. May be arbitrary to you just as it is arbitrary to me when someone says it begins at conception.

Besides, the Catholic Church is out there supposedly promoting this pro life agenda (because abortion is suppose to be a mortal sin) while never excommunicating pro abortion Catholic legislators, (i.e. Pelosi, Kennedys, et al). Until the Catholic Church goes out there and starts excommunicating these legislators, because actions speak louder than words, their pro life stance is a scam. And to me gives more credence to my argument

But anyways . . . Agree to disagree . . .

Peace out!


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[IVC]

When does life begin and along with those human rights? I say after it is discharged from the hospital after birth. May be arbitrary to you just as it is arbitrary to me when someone says it begins at conception.

Or as arbitrary as someone saying at age 1 or 2.

That's the point - we are talking about a much more serious issue than just "women's health" which is a *very* convenient framework to avoid discussion of the real problem, which is determination of an arbitrary point in development when the human rights begin.

[readysetgo]

You and others make this silly analogy that abortion and homosexual sex are equivalent to 2a rights. Then the conversation becomes about abortion and homosexual sex.

I don't care if you want to have a convo about those two items. It's off topic, but whatever. I won't even get into those conversations.

Before I even entertain the concept, I need the originators and defenders to explain to me, the equivalence of these issues.

2a = A natural right to defend life and liberty

Abortion = A right to choose to abort a baby (???)

Homo sex = A right to choose to diddle the same sex (???)


Tell me which is more important. Tell me where one of the other two are being actively pushed (bans and criminality, legislatively, judicialy etc) to the extent 2a is attacked.

Do you have to register your surgical utensils? You're penis? Do you have to wait x days for your procedure or your intercourse? Do you have to get a background check? Are you limited to less than six abortions per x time period? 1 in 30 boinkings from your boyfriend?

Of course these are mostly rhetorical questions, not to back you in a corner but to illustrate that your 'opinion' is wildly devoid of real context and disingenuous.

[oddball]

For the same reason that abortion proponents are against "common sense" abortion laws . . .

It will cause a slippery slope eventually outlawing abortion.




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This is one of the stupidest posts I have seen in quite awhile. The comparison of the two is just asinine.