80%ers illegal?!?! kinda...

[chevyboy10]

Looking for a little help from some of you on this one!

So, I was at a LGS on Thursday to pick up a pistol I had some sights put on and while chatting the owner took a call that peaked my interest. Long story short it was regarding 80% lowers being illegal. He had been at an ATF meeting of sorts (i guess all ffl's are supposed to attend), and it was explained to him that to complete an 80% lower legally you need to take it to a FFL machinist, get it serialized, inspected by ATF, then DROs to you.

Is there any truth to any of that mess? I have read quite a bit about 80's in the past 3 years, and this is the first I have heard of any of this...was he mistaken?? Doesn't that kind of defeat the whole principle behind an 80?

What do you guys think...

[Rosereader]

If you were having somebody else make it, yes. I believe the current interpretation also means you cannot use somebody else's tools or shop to do so, they have to be your own.

But no, not illegal. An "80% lower" is a misnomer, as there are specific criteria the ATF has put forth as to when a block of material becomes a firearm rather than some arbitrary percentage, but as a rule, manufacturing firearms for your own personal usage, so long as they are not then sold nor do they break compliance with local laws (still has to be CA-compliant, maglocked or "featureless" AR, for instance).

[dmesloh]

If you were having somebody else make it, yes. I believe the current interpretation also means you cannot use somebody else's tools or shop to do so, they have to be your own.

But no, not illegal. An "80% lower" is a misnomer, as there are specific criteria the ATF has put forth as to when a block of material becomes a firearm rather than some arbitrary percentage, but as a rule, manufacturing firearms for your own personal usage, so long as they are not then sold nor do they break compliance with local laws (still has to be CA-compliant, maglocked or "featureless" AR, for instance).

I thought the issue was with the build party CNC machine thing (someone else setting up everything and you pushing the start button)? If using a manuel mill and doing setup and machine work yourself what difference does it matter who owns the mill?

[chevyboy10]

thats always been what I've understood as well! and sorry, i guess i was a bit vague...he was referring to completing an 80 on your own (own tools, jig...), understanding an 80 w/ no further work done to it is not a firearm.

figured it was bogus, but he was VERY clear w/ me on what "he" heard.

[golfish]

I stopped reading when you said "So, I was at a LGS on Thursday to pick up a pistol "

[Rosereader]

I thought the issue was with the build party CNC machine thing? If using a manuel mill and doing setup and machine work yourself what difference does it matter who owns the mill?

It's a bit murky, I've heard accounts on it both being just against using CNC machines, to it being against making use of another's equipment wholesale. If you want to use somebody else's equipment, I'd suggest looking into it further than I have.


As to what your FFL said OP, smells like FUD to me. Secondhand FUD perhaps, remember that just because he has an FFL doesn't mean he knows everything. Honestly I'm not sure anybody knows everything regarding the convoluted firearms laws in CA, local, state and federal together.

But, in general so long as you're just making the same stuff most people just buy, build away.

[2761377]

if you're asking "Do you believe an ATF agent would lie, acting upon on his superiors' instructions" then my answer is "Yes"

[Wes C Addle]

Your LGS is full of FUD

FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt

[Rosereader]

Also he may just be trying to discourage you from building your own After all, it could be hurting his bottom line.

[dmesloh]

It's a bit murky, I've heard accounts on it both being just against using CNC machines, to it being against making use of another's equipment wholesale. If you want to use somebody else's equipment, I'd suggest looking into it further than I have.


As to what your FFL said OP, smells like FUD to me. Secondhand FUD perhaps, remember that just because he has an FFL doesn't mean he knows everything. Honestly I'm not sure anybody knows everything regarding the convoluted firearms laws in CA, local, state and federal together.

But, in general so long as you're just making the same stuff most people just buy, build away.

I had the equipment when I built mine, I was just curious.

[CSACANNONEER]

LOL. Let's look at the official ATF opinion: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does...m-personal-use

Also, please note that ATF is a FEDERAL agency and doesn't regulate "DROS" at all. "DROS stands for "Dealer Record Of Sale" and is a California thing ONLY.

I suggest finding a FFL that doesn't spout crap like this and never returning to the FFL you heard this from again. BTW, care to out the FUD spreading FFL so the rest of us will know who not to do any business with?

[chevyboy10]

i agree 100% that just because someone works at a shop, that in no way makes them an expert! i also agree that owning the equip., tooling, and completing an 80 is legal (obviously for yourself, with no intent to manufacture..).

i wanted to put it on the forum, because this was the first I've ever heard this "rumor" and was curious if there was any validity to it, or if anyone had heard anything similar.

thanks for the feedback guys

[chevyboy10]

Also he may just be trying to discourage you from building your own After all, it could be hurting his bottom line.

hahaha....you might have nailed it!

[MotoriousRacing]

One thing that may get confused is that an 80% build, I believe, must still comply with laws and feature regulations required in California, such as 10-round mags, 16-inch barrels, and bullet buttons, unless featureless. Being a home build does not allow you to get around those laws/regs.

[chevyboy10]

One thing that may get confused is that an 80% build, I believe, must still comply with laws and feature regulations required in California, such as 10-round mags, 16-inch barrels, and bullet buttons, unless featureless. Being a home build does not allow you to get around those laws/regs.

you're right, but he was specifically talking about the act of turning an 80%er into a 100% functioning lower.