Italy; The poster child for socialized medicine

[colossians323]

Story here

Israeli doctor in Italy: We no longer help those over 60
Israeli medical doctor Gai Peleg told Israeli television that in northern Italy the orders are not to allow those over 60 access to respiratory machines.

We keep hearing how great socialized medicine is, only to see the actual horror stories

Makes you wonder if the stories about Cheena burning people alive are true...........after all, they have the coveted 'socialized medicine'

[PogoJack]

Unfortunately leftists keep saying our semi-free market system is woefully unprepared for a pandemic so big government should somehow fix that with single payer.

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[Mustard]

Unfortunately leftists keep saying our semi-free market system is woefully unprepared for a pandemic so big government should somehow fix that with single payer.

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Honest noobie question: if "single payer" = socialized healthcare, who is this single payer? Ther government?

[FireCloud9]

Not to worry, in 6-18 months we'll have plenty of data points as there are ~50 countries that have single payer and we'll be able to compare to those countries that do not.

The proof will be in the pudding - not a single data point, but the whole world.

After this, the odds are good the argument will be settled one way or another.

[Inoxmark]

With limited number of resources, it's either
- treat whoever got there first, or
- treat whoever has better odds of recovery.

Either choice sucks. Years from now doctors will still be regretting having to make it. Hospitals here may face same dilemma.

[plinkr]

Not to worry, in 6-18 months we'll have plenty of data points as there are ~50 countries that have single payer and we'll be able to compare to those countries that do not.



The proof will be in the pudding - not a single data point, but the whole world.



After this, the odds are good the argument will be settled one way or another.

My money is on the proposition that competent management is better than incompetent bungling.

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[capo]

Honest noobie question: if "single payer" = socialized healthcare, who is this single payer? Ther government?

Correct, single payer indicates a private health care industry with a single insurance entity paying the bills. This is commonly referred to a socialized medicine whereas nationalized medicine has the actual health care being provided by public entities rather than private. Most systems which have socialized also have some degree of entirely private care as the socialized apparatus provides a guaranteed level of basic care and generally universal access while the well heeled may pay to retain the services of a higher level of care. You may hear the term concierge medicine, that's mostly the latter in action.

[capo]

Not to worry, in 6-18 months we'll have plenty of data points as there are ~50 countries that have single payer and we'll be able to compare to those countries that do not.

The proof will be in the pudding - not a single data point, but the whole world.

After this, the odds are good the argument will be settled one way or another.

There's really only one entirely developed country that doesn't have universal socialized care at this point and that's the US. Superficially similar systems around the world are already producing vastly different outcomes, just look at the difference between South Korea and Italy, so there's not likely to be many apples to apples comparisons to be had.

In the end people are going to pick and choose data to support their beliefs rather than let the data inform conclusions.

[The War Wagon]

We keep hearing how great socialized medicine is, only to see the actual horror stories

Welcome to 2012!

[EM2]

Honest noobie question: if "single payer" = socialized healthcare, who is this single payer? Ther government?

Yes, well sorta...

The government "pays" the bills, so in that sense it is 'single payer'.

However, the devil is in the details.

You see, everyone pays exorbitant taxes to the government, therefor everyone (well tax payers for sure) are the actual payers, but lets not let that confuse things.

[Wherryj]

Here's the other issue with socialized medicine. Italy has gutted their healthcare system even more than the US. Here it has been done because HMOs and Medicare have been exerting pressure to get everything as cheaply as possible, so no provider can have ANY excess capacity or they are inefficient enough to go bankrupt.

Even so, the US is WELL ahead of Italy in important things like critical care.

Italy's issue is that they have gutted their healthcare system even more than we have here in the US. I wonder if that has anything to do with it being national socialized healthcare?

Italy has 12.5 critical care beds per 100,000 residents. The USA has 34.7 per 100,000.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmc.../#6b507ebd7f86

Here is an article discussing the economics of the situation in which there was even more of a push to reduce these beds for "efficiency". I remember hearing physicians warning about gutting the system even back in the 1990s, yet as little as a few years back there was still more push to "reduce cost".

https://www.chcf.org/wp-content/uplo...reBedsInCA.pdf

I can't find specific stats on CCU/capita in CA, but I suspect that it will follow the general trend of "less than the average in the USA". Hospital beds certain due, and we can thank Kaiser for pushing down the "floor" for everything to get things "more efficient".

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indi...2:%22asc%22%7D

USA hospital beds per 1,000=2.4
CA hospital beds per 1,000=1.8
(This is 2018, so things may have changed)

[speedrrracer]

After this, the odds are good the argument will be settled one way or another.

Not even then, because the health care system won't be the only variable in the mix

[Chewy65]

I am always hearing about how great Cuba's medical care is and see it currently only has 35 cases of COVID. I hope it does well.

[Chewy65]

Besides whatever its problems with its health system may be, I understand that Italy not only has an aging population, but that people are crowded very closely together on its narrow streets.

[sonofeugene]

Not even then, because the health care system won't be the only variable in the mix

Yep.

Like the fact is Italy has he second oldest population in the world.

Like Italy smokes like a chimney, especially the elderly.

Like they're more crowded than we are.

Like they are all touchy-feely.

Like.....