20ga for Duty

[deckhandmike]

I also believe the time has come for Departments to start considering this as an option for Officers. Many would choose this option based on their preference or possibly their size.

They do make a smaller, lighter, more modular firearm for LEO. It's an AR. There, I said it.

[olhunter]

It was a simple question....Maybe reading lessons are in order so people can understand the question

It would be nice to have an adult conversation on the subject. That is becoming almost impossible on this forum. If the kids would go play with their X Box then this thread could get some real input.

Hmmmmm...

Do you SEE the irony? lol....



Oh and by the way...12ga all the way. Why bother with a 20? You're not carrying 200 rounds, so ammo weight is not an issue.

There's no reason to deploy with a 20ga. If you can't handle a 12ga in LE, you should be home making sammiches.

[bigbearbear]

I wouldn't mind using a 20 gauge shotgun as my duty gun, especially if I have to carry it and the ammo a lot. Its lighter weight and lighter ammo is pretty nice.

If I have a choice though, I'll prefer a lightweight 12 gauge semi-auto, like one of those inertia driven Benelli.

However, if I'm a LEO and my department wants me to use a 20 gauge pump action shotgun, I won't feel outgunned or be concerned. Shotgun is what I shoot best and most with, I love them. Wife and I shoot trap almost every weekend and we burn through 300 to 500 shot shells a week. We sometimes go to the manual trap range in Los Altos to practice double trap too, they let you throw 2 clays at the same time and you can practice how to engage 2 moving targets quickly. There are not many places that will let you train like that if you're using pistols or rifles.

Did I mention I love shotguns?

[bigbearbear]

BTW aippi, do you think police departments will consider switching from pump action to semi-auto shotguns, but keep their 12 gauge?

The felt recoil from a good semi-auto is a lot less compared to a pump action of similar weight. If they use something like a Remington Versamax, which is fairly heavy, more officers might shoot better. Or go for the best and adopt the Benelli M4.

[Steve_In_29]

I keep an 870P as one of my H.D. options. My wife is 5'9" with plenty of muscle.

I've been considering adding an autoloader in 20 gauge as another option. Any suggestions ?

The Turkish made shotguns from Escort seem to be quality weapons at a good price point and they offer some in 20G.

I bought my wife (4'10"/100ish lbs) one of their Youth model 20G semi-autos and have been pretty impressed with it. It did turn out to still be on the heavy side for her and she much prefers her, even smaller, Mossberg .410 pump.

[Che762x39]

Remember the Norco shootout in 1980?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norco_shootout

The 1st suspect put down was with a single 00B pellet at 50 yards after it passed thru the van. The AR-15 was the star of the day and I do not know why it took so long for agencies to issue AR-15 i.e. North Hollywood.

[jay_cue]

Thanks Ducky. An excellent response with factual justifications. Just what I want when I post a question.

I liked the comment about long ago and the adjustments since then. I began in 1978 and our department load was 2 3/4 magnum 12 pellet 00. I hated qaul days for the shotgun because I had to shoulder it. They would not let me point shoot as I would in a fight. In the early '80 pressure was put on to increase hiring by gender. New officers could not qualify with the shotgun and complained about recoil. It was a short time later our load became standard 9 pellet 00. What is funny is I still use the 12 pellet. Old habits are hard to break but I seldom shoulder a shotgun so recoil is a non issue. Plus I fell in love with the Mesa LEO with hydraulic buffer for the times I do shoulder a shotgun. I am building a new HD for my bedside which is going to be an 870 20ga and it will also have the Mesa LEO. I'm 61 and many years of power lifting have taken a toll on the shoulders. So my decision is one I should have made years ago.

how do you like Mesa hydraulic buffer? I didn't find good reviews to help in my decision making. the shotgun we have in our bedroom is mainly the wifeys. with lacking in the reviews I couldn't justify the purchase for the price.

[aippi]

how do you like Mesa hydraulic buffer? I didn't find good reviews to help in my decision making. the shotgun we have in our bedroom is mainly the wifeys. with lacking in the reviews I couldn't justify the purchase for the price.

It can't get any better then the Mesa LEO with Hydraulic buffer with the addition of the Limbsaver slip on M4 recoil pad. The recoil reduction it the best of any in the market. However, the most beneficial benefit of this stock for a fighting shotgun is the fact that the weapon recoils back into the buffer. This helps reduce muzzle flip so the barrel of the weapon stays down. This allows you to stay on target or get back on target faster. So this stock can actually save your life in a fight as your follow up shots are faster. Use low recoil and the benefits are enhanced. The only way to reduce felt recoil more then with the above stock set up is to let someone else shoot the dang gun.

[cgates]

Ok, so from the standpoint of someone who enjoys shotguns, and from the standpoint of someone who reloads here is my response:

YES

I am not in law enforcement and am not sure what agencies are using these days but I seem to hear a lot about "low recoil tactical LE buckshot" which seems to be just a slow loading of 8 00 buck pellets. That's 1oz of lead at about 1150 fps - standard 12ga target load specs.

From a reloading perspective, the 12ga hull is very versatile, even if limited to 2 3/4 hulls. Depending on the hull, the load mass can vary from 3/4 oz to 1 1/2 oz. 20ga is less versatile in that regard - only 3/4 to 1oz typically. I suppose my point here is that even though the 12ga has the ability to deliver larger doses of lead at faster velocities, I don't think those hot and heavy loads are utilized quite as much as maybe they once were. The loads used now can be achieved by either using a 12 or a 20ga hull.

If you can deliver the same amount of lead at the same velocity by either using a 20ga or a 12ga, why would you choose to carry around a 12ga gun IF you had the choice? The weight of the ammo is not a factor . I love the 870, but the feel and balance of a 20ga gun is quite a bit different in comparison to the 12ga. In fact, to me, the 12ga seems rather "clunky" in comparison. 20ga guns have a balance and weight to them that is hard to beat. If im shooting 1oz loads, the clear choice for me is always the 20ga over the 12

[DArBad]

If I know then, what I do now, I would have gotten a 20 gauge shotgun also. BUT I would have gotten the 20 gauge only as a supplement to my 12 gauge, not as a replacement.

I have way too much money vested already on the 12 gauge.

[aippi]

Thank you cgates. Facts are the best contribution to any debate. Not that my intent was a debate. It was a simple question that some of these guys did not even answer, Since it has turned into some kind of debate I welcome your facts. You points about loads add a lot to this post.

[JagerDog]

In an LE environment, heck no. If recoil is a poblem, lessening the heft of the gun is a disadvantage. Lighter loadings is a better solution. So many off the shelf options in 12g. Many which meet determined penetration goals.

Very short engagements may be the rule, but the long guns tend to come out when there's more likliehood of an extended battle and/or barricading.

In a home environment I might have a different answer. Less chance for hardened targets/barriers. Less chance for multiple targets and hence reload with ammo I didn't neccesarily bring to the party. Less chance my range will exceed 30'ish feet. Home DEFENSE is a different game than offense.

[wweigle]

Here is an interesting write up by Mas Ayoob.

Consider the 20-gauge shotgun
By Massad Ayoob

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob120.html

[aippi]

Wow, thanks for the post wweigle. I am not very familiar with this man but read the entire thing and it is an excellent read. I know of him because of past clients telling me about him and he is also an advocate of the 20ga like I am. I only differ with the type of gun and would take a pump over a semi-auto as a fight gun. But the points he raises about the 20ga are the same that I know but I am not bright enough to put into the words he does.

[deadcoyote]

Alright, to give you your requested fair and mature response I will say I like shotguns, but we phased them out. A lot of shops are going this way. If my work came to me today and said "you can have a shotgun back but it's going to be a 20 gauge", I would be perfectly fine with that as there's really no difference in performance between the two.

ETA: I work in a very rural area and the times when shotguns really outshined other firearms was on bear calls. A 870 with slugs is the best option you typically have in your car on a bear call. I feel bad for some of the young guys now, who end up blasting a bear 5-10 times with an AR then the publics mad that they shouldnt have shot it so many times. That's modern life in this career though, everything is becoming through the prism of how it's perceived by the public, not how it is in the moment. On that note, you could articulate a 20 gauge would be a better option as well i.e., your agency went with a lower powered firearm.