20ga for Duty

[aippi]

Who would use and 20ga for a duty shotgun if their department allowed it? I would without any hesitation. They are lighter and the ammo is lighter. My only reservation would be there is no Dedicated Forend weapon light made for it and with Surefire they only one out there making a Dedicated forend light, don't look for one any time soon (maybe). Other then that I would never feel under-gunned with a 20ga shotgun in my hands.

I also believe the time has come for Departments to start considering this as an option for Officers. Many would choose this option based on their preference or possibly their size.

[NapalmCheese]

Who would use and 20ga for a duty shotgun if their department allowed it? I would without any hesitation. They are lighter and the ammo is lighter. My only reservation would be there is no Dedicated Forend weapon light made for it and with Surefire they only one out there making a Dedicated forend light, don't look for one any time soon (maybe). Other then that I would never feel under-gunned with a 20ga shotgun in my hands.

I also believe the time has come for Departments to start considering this as an option for Officers. Many would choose this option based on their preference or possibly their size.

I'm not a cop, nor do I have any work related reasons to carry a gun; but I don't see a 20 gauge as being any less effective for defensive purposes.

All things being equal the only thing the 12 gauge gets you is increased payload, and I don't feel that the slightly decreased payload of a 20 gauge would make that much of a difference, however the size and weight are preferable to me.

[deckhandmike]

Is there really that big of difference? I mean if you can't handle a 12 gauge you shouldn't be trusted with a 20 gauge. I say raise the bar on who we hire instead.

As far as capability of the 12 vs 20 I agree it's more than adequate for the requirements.

[sealocan]

How about a .410 ?



pump or semi-auto "for duty"?

(you know for those really "strength challenged" metro types of the future possible ranks of our police force.)

:-)

[deadcoyote]

How about a .410 ?



pump or semi-auto "for duty"?

(you know for those really "strength challenged" metro types of the future possible ranks of our police force.)

:-)

From my experience they're all put into some kind of grant funded liason job with mental health or UC system "disproportianate minority confinement" workgroups, then vault up into the admin ranks after about 5 years. Not jaded.... maybe a little

[aippi]

It is not an issue as to the ability of the LEO to handle a 12ga. I used the 12ga for my entire career. I'm 5'5" and as an HRT member and latter Team Leader I could not tip the scale over 150 in full body armor and tactical gear (minus weapons of course). It is the ability of the user to deploy the weapon and a preference. Had the 20ga been an option I would have taken it. As I said it is lighter and the ammo is lighter. It is lighter then the 12ga whether you are 220 Lbs or was 142 like I was back then. A perp is just as dead with a load #3 buck from a 20ga in his chest as he would be with a load of 00 from a 12ga. That is why they call it shotgun dead.

[JagerDog]

I'm a fan of 20g, however I think the shortcoming is the buckshot size(s) available. #3 Buck seems to be by far the most common. The common wisdom (based on FBI requirements for penetration) is #1Buck or larger.

[ysr_racer]

Real men use 8ga shotguns

[Steve_In_29]

How about a .410 ?



pump or semi-auto "for duty"?

(you know for those really "strength challenged" metro types of the future possible ranks of our police force.)

:-)

No need to malign the .410, as it doesn't give up as much as you think to the 12G and even less so to the 20G. As I laid out in my thread here .410 for home defense

[deckhandmike]

Actually, I'm fairly confident many LEO have trouble handling a 12 gauge. No offense to you. I'm very confident in your ability. I just think the weight savings is not worth the cost of fielding two different guns, ammo, accessories etc.

[aippi]

It would be nice to have an adult conversation on the subject. That is becoming almost impossible on this forum. If the kids would go play with their X Box then this thread could get some real input.

The question was would you use it. There is no wrong answer as it is being presented as a personal choice. If you would not use then fine, if you want to say why then fine. Same with an answer of Yes. That is what some of the grown ups did and they contributed to the conversation.

You are correct Deckhand. Very few of todays LEO's can Master the shotgun. It is getting harder to find them standard issue in Patrol cars. I think weight and recoil is the biggest issue. I also thing the 20g could help bring the shotgun back to LE and not just for smaller officer and female's.

Initial firepower is the main benefit of the shotgun since there is more initial firepower with a shotgun then there is an AR or SMG. So if the 20ga can put this in the hands of officer who would not otherwise use a shotgun then it's a good thing.

[Ducky's Dad]

I'm not a cop, never have been, but I spent two years at one of the big academies training soon-to-be-cops. This was long ago, before the physical standards were "modified" in the interests of diversity. The best shotgun for the job is the one you have in your hands when you need it. The versatility and ubiquity of the 12 indicate that it will be the standard issue shotgun for the foreseeable future. Logistics and conversion costs alone will prevent the shift from 12 to 20. I am very comfortable with the idea of a 20, but give me a choice when the SHTF and I'll choose the 12. Any cop who can't easily handle a 12 should probably be in another line of work. A 20 will do the job, but a 12 will do it more consistently and more effectively, and with more flexibility in load selection.

[aippi]

Thanks Ducky. An excellent response with factual justifications. Just what I want when I post a question.

I liked the comment about long ago and the adjustments since then. I began in 1978 and our department load was 2 3/4 magnum 12 pellet 00. I hated qaul days for the shotgun because I had to shoulder it. They would not let me point shoot as I would in a fight. In the early '80 pressure was put on to increase hiring by gender. New officers could not qualify with the shotgun and complained about recoil. It was a short time later our load became standard 9 pellet 00. What is funny is I still use the 12 pellet. Old habits are hard to break but I seldom shoulder a shotgun so recoil is a non issue. Plus I fell in love with the Mesa LEO with hydraulic buffer for the times I do shoulder a shotgun. I am building a new HD for my bedside which is going to be an 870 20ga and it will also have the Mesa LEO. I'm 61 and many years of power lifting have taken a toll on the shoulders. So my decision is one I should have made years ago.

[StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca]

I'm not a cop, never have been, but I spent two years at one of the big academies training soon-to-be-cops. This was long ago, before the physical standards were "modified" in the interests of diversity. The best shotgun for the job is the one you have in your hands when you need it. The versatility and ubiquity of the 12 indicate that it will be the standard issue shotgun for the foreseeable future. Logistics and conversion costs alone will prevent the shift from 12 to 20. I am very comfortable with the idea of a 20, but give me a choice when the SHTF and I'll choose the 12. Any cop who can't easily handle a 12 should probably be in another line of work. A 20 will do the job, but a 12 will do it more consistently and more effectively, and with more flexibility in load selection.

^This. Plus you would not have the option to use fin stabilized, bean bag or diversionary munitions with a 20 ga. Also this could be an issue if only select Officers used 20ga and there was a need to aquire additional ammo from other Officers.

[aippi]

^This. Plus you would not have the option to use fin stabilized, bean bag or diversionary munitions with a 20 ga. Also this could be an issue if only select Officers used 20ga and there was a need to aquire additional ammo from other Officers.

Not a valid point as Specialty Impact Munitions are fired from Dedicate Identifiable Less then Lethal Shotguns.

99.9% of Police involved shooting are over in seconds not minutes. So also not a valid point.