Is it a shotgun or a rifle?

[Murby]

So I'm reading a 640+ page book called "The American Rifle" and this question popped into my head for some reason...

Can someone explain to me what is the legal and technical difference between a rifle and a shotgun as could be used in a court of law?

Lets put this into a story problem for some context..
A DNR officer approaches you in your deer hunting blind and says you're hunting with a rifle in a shotgun only area.. You say, "But sir, this is a remington 870 shotgun".. and he says "No, a shot gun fires a bunch of pellets.. not a bullet.. Rifles fire bullets.. shotguns fire groups of round balls.. Come with me cupcake! You're under arrest."

Now, how do you explain to a judge or a jury that your weapon, a Remington 870 slug gun, which has a rifled barrel and loaded with a slug that is propelled by a sequence of events where a firing pin ignites a primer in the center of the shell that then ignites the main propellent, is in fact a shotgun and not a rifle?

Sounds like a rifle to me...

[Trapper]

Shotguns capable of holding not more than three shells firing single slugs may be used for the taking of deer, bear and wild pigs. In areas where the discharge of rifles or shotguns with slugs is prohibited by county ordinance, shotguns capable of holding not more than three shells firing size 0 or 00 buckshot may be used for the taking of deer only.

[xjdesertfox]

I would think the difference is that shotguns are listed in "gauge" and not "caliber"

but i guess my logic is flawed now that I think about it, due to the .410.

[scamp62]

By definition “Rifle” refers to the rifling cut into the barrel to impart spin to the projectile, So if the barrel has rifling, then it would be a “Rifle”

[hermosabeach]

There is a common understanding between the line, but you raise a good question.... Was the platform designed to act as a rifle or a shotgun?

Or the Judge pistol... designed to shoot .45 long colt and .410 shotgun shells...

So how to the Federally licensed manufacture design the firearm???

If the manufacture designates the 870 design as a shotgun and the ATF signs off on the design and designation... that would be your starting point in court

[RickD427]

The best way to answer the question is to look at the corresponding definitions in the Penal Code:

Here's what a "Rifle" is:

17090. As used in Sections 16530, 16640, 16650, 16660, 16870, and
17170, Sections 17720 to 17730, inclusive, Section 17740, subdivision
(f) of Section 27555, Article 2 (commencing with Section 30300) of
Chapter 1 of Division 10 of Title 4, and Article 1 (commencing with
Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "rifle" means
a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be
fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade
to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only
a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of
the trigger.

Here's what a "Shotgun" is:

17190. As used in Sections 16530, 16640, 16870, and 17180, Sections
17720 to 17730, inclusive, Section 17740, subdivision (f) of Section
27555, Section 30215, and Article 1 (commencing with Section 33210)
of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "shotgun" means a weapon
designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from
the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use
the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through
a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single
projectile for each pull of the trigger.

The shotgun is defined as having a "smooth bore."

Based on these definitions, it would seem that your rifle barreled shotgun is a rifle.

[nrakid88]

Isnt there a confucian saying " if you ask what is the meaning of life, you will not know the answer" ?

A rifle has rifling. a shotgun or musket has a smooth bore. Law has no grasp on reality or morality, a similiar aspect to linguistics.
If your trying to find logic in law, its lost quickly after entering the rabbit hole.

[Scuba951]

Isnt there a confucian saying " if you ask what is the meaning of life, you will not know the answer" ?

A rifle has rifling. a shotgun or musket has a smooth bore. Law has no grasp on reality or morality, a similiar aspect to linguistics.
If your trying to find logic in law, its lost quickly after entering the rabbit hole.

It seems to me he's not asking about logic here. He's asking about something which is actually defined in law.
A "shotgun" with a rifled bore firing a single projectile is a rifle.

Use rifled slugs in a smooth bore shotgun. Problem solved, eh?

[NapalmCheese]

The pedant in me says there needs to be a definition of cartridge vs. shotgun shell.

In one part we have a rifled barrel firing a single projectile from a cartridge.
In the other part we have smooth bore barrel firing multiple or single projectiles from a shotgun shell.

So, what we have a rifled barrel firing a single projectile from a shotgun shell? Is there an argument that a shotgun shell is or is not a cartridge?

[RickD427]

The pedant in me says there needs to be a definition of cartridge vs. shotgun shell.

In one part we have a rifled barrel firing a single projectile from a cartridge.
In the other part we have smooth bore barrel firing multiple or single projectiles from a shotgun shell.

So, what we have a rifled barrel firing a single projectile from a shotgun shell? Is there an argument that a shotgun shell is or is not a cartridge?

Neither term is defined in the Penal Code. The PC does use the term "Fixed Cartridge" to specify the ammunition used in a "Rifle." It does not define that term. Most non-authoritative sources define the term as a combination of projectile, propellant, case and primer into one unit. That definition would incorporate a shotgun shell as being a "Fixed Cartridge."

I'm not sure if there is much persuasion in the nomenclature of the ammunition. It seems as long as the barrel is not "smooth bore" that the weapon is not a shotgun.

[socom2shooter]

In this state its a grey area, just dont use rifled shotgun

[sean2013]

It seems to me he's not asking about logic here. He's asking about something which is actually defined in law.
A "shotgun" with a rifled bore firing a single projectile is a rifle.

Use rifled slugs in a smooth bore shotgun. Problem solved, eh?

Rifled slug in smooth barrel is more stable or accurate than smooth slugs? Then what's the point?
What about a rifled choke? I think that's grey.

[Vertigofirearms]

Then you get into the logic that a Serbu Super Shorty is a "Smooth-bore Pistol of beyond .500 inch in diameter" AOW mumbo jumbo.

[aippi]

Because ATF classified your 870 as a Shotgun not a rifle and that is what is listed the gun book of the dealer that sold it to you. So there is no issue, not even in the bowl of fruit loop gun laws in CA. Shotguns will rifled barrels are sold as, listed as by ATF and are shotguns. You can also consider the weapon fires a projectile from a shotgun shell and not a rifle casing and is loaded with shotgun powder not rifle powder. Even though the gun may have similarities with a rifle, the shell it fires does not. There is no issue here.

The issue for shotgun only areas and laws is the distance the projectile travels and not the weapon that fires it. It is a safety issue for populated areas and the shotgun is selected because the much shorter range the projectile will travel after is leaves the muzzle. In many states you can also use a muzzle loader and even though it is considered a rifle by many laws it is acceptable because the ball will not travel the same distance as a center fire rifle projectile. The fact I have typed this much on a non issue clearly shows I am a bored old man and need to get a life.

[RickD427]

Because ATF classified your 870 as a Shotgun not a rifle and that is what is listed the gun book of the dealer that sold it to you. So there is no issue, not even in the bowl of fruit loop gun laws in CA. Shotguns will rifled barrels are sold as, listed as by ATF and are shotguns. You can also consider the weapon fires a projectile from a shotgun shell and not a rifle casing and is loaded with shotgun powder not rifle powder. Even though the gun may have similarities with a rifle, the shell it fires does not. There is no issue here.

The issue for shotgun only areas and laws is the distance the projectile travels and not the weapon that fires it. It is a safety issue for populated areas and the shotgun is selected because the much shorter range the projectile will travel after is leaves the muzzle. In many states you can also use a muzzle loader and even though it is considered a rifle by many laws it is acceptable because the ball will not travel the same distance as a center fire rifle projectile. The fact I have typed this much on a non issue clearly shows I am a bored old man and need to get a life.

JD,

I'm sure all of the above is true, you seem to know your stuff.

But we're talking California law here. ATF is a federal agency and their policies and procedures don't have any bearing on California law. If California chooses to define a ham sandwich as a rifle, then (at least for legal purposes) the ham sandwich is a rifle. It may not make sense in the grand scheme of things, as your posting points out, but then a lot of California law doesn't make sense. I'm sure that someone will bring up the anecdote where Abraham Lincoln pointed out that calling a horse's tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. Mr. Lincoln was speaking common sense, not California law - different matters altogether.

There's a good example of the difference between California law and federal law in the classification of the Taurus "Judge."