Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-07-2010, 9:52 PM
nrakid88's Avatar
nrakid88 nrakid88 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Santa Clarita
Posts: 3,285
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default What is more effective, 5.56 or .308?

Hey guys,

So I was cruising around arf com checking out the ammo oracle. It was basically saying that (out of a 20 inch barrel) m193 is more effective than expanding bullets. Basically the fragmentation has more DRT factor than expansion does.

So, that explains for 5.56 fmj beating a .308 fmj within 200 yards... But how does the m193 stack up to a .308 expanding round INSIDE 200 YARDS? Is the 5.56 fragmentation still king, or does the extra power and diameter of the .308 give expansion the upper hand?

I appreciate any comments, but I am really looking for some solid evidence.
__________________

5.56 vs. 308? http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=267737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
You are not a mall ninja. You are a defender of mall ninjas.

Last edited by nrakid88; 02-07-2010 at 9:58 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-07-2010, 9:56 PM
frigginchi's Avatar
frigginchi frigginchi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,169
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

5.56 if you have an unobstructed shot.

7.62 if you are shooting at stuff behind cover.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-07-2010, 9:58 PM
aplinker's Avatar
aplinker aplinker is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: West LA
Posts: 16,822
iTrader: 92 / 100%
Default

Wait, what? Who said 5.56 of any type is superior to .308?
__________________

Google Map of OLL Dealers

List of CA-friendly Manufacturers, Dealers, Middlemen, and Magazine rebuild kit dealers
Click me-->So you're a n00b and you want to build an AR? <--Click me
This post is based on actual events. Some facts may be altered for dramatic purposes. All posts are pure opinion. All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental, and should not be construed.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:04 PM
nrakid88's Avatar
nrakid88 nrakid88 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Santa Clarita
Posts: 3,285
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aplinker View Post
Wait, what? Who said 5.56 of any type is superior to .308?
Quote:
Everyone was surprised to learn that M16 wounds were often much more severe.
http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_tighttwist.html
__________________

5.56 vs. 308? http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=267737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
You are not a mall ninja. You are a defender of mall ninjas.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:05 PM
elSquid's Avatar
elSquid elSquid is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Left coast.
Posts: 8,641
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

From http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm





-- Michael
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:08 PM
nrakid88's Avatar
nrakid88 nrakid88 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Santa Clarita
Posts: 3,285
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elSquid View Post
Oh mommy, haha, thats gotta hurt. Okay, very cool indeed. Guess I will stick with the .308 with some nice Hornady ballistic tips as my go to gun.
__________________

5.56 vs. 308? http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=267737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
You are not a mall ninja. You are a defender of mall ninjas.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:10 PM
Kerplow's Avatar
Kerplow Kerplow is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Slumington Beach
Posts: 8,160
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

i cant speak from experience but i recall reading an article from an old SOF mag about a guy who unloaded his 20 rounds of 5.56 into a determined VC attacker and the adrenaline fueled Charles did not stop until his mate with an m14 put one into him. i suppose there is something to be said about "stopping power". even though your 45 auto will eventually kill a bear he will probably have had his way with you long before he dies.

i think it was from a rather critical article about the 5.56 basically likening it to a varmint gun unsuitable for use against people. maybe just propaganda?

Last edited by Kerplow; 02-07-2010 at 10:14 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:13 PM
nrakid88's Avatar
nrakid88 nrakid88 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Santa Clarita
Posts: 3,285
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

Depends, if it came out of a 11.5 inch barrel with 5.5 inch flash hider, then yeah, it basically is a glorified .22. But if it was out of a 20 inch barrel then I would find that particularly hard to believe, and that operator error (putting rounds in places they won't matter) would be the more important factor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerplow View Post
i cant speak from experience but i recall reading an article from an old SOF mag about a guy who unloaded his 20 rounds of 5.56 into a determined VC attacker and the adrenaline fueled Charles did not stop until his mate with an m14 put one into him.

i think it was from a rather critical article about the 5.56 basically likening it to a varmint gun unsuitable for use against people. maybe just propaganda?
__________________

5.56 vs. 308? http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=267737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
You are not a mall ninja. You are a defender of mall ninjas.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:18 PM
Jpach's Avatar
Jpach Jpach is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Santa Clarita
Posts: 4,718
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elSquid View Post
Somebody needs to make a thin jacketed-fragmenting ballistic tip .50 BMG bullet. Perhaps in the 500-550gr range. That would DESTROY.
__________________
PM or Email me if you have questions: Jpach89@gmail.com

Check out my LMT .308 AR
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotton View Post
I have to try that method of attaching the front of a sling to the gun via pubic hair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomb_on_bus View Post
Best part of buying that stock is it comes with its own complimentary jar of anal lube! There were several flavors to choose from, regular, hot cinnamon, or bacon. Im a man of danger so I chose Hot cinnamon to use with my bump fire buttstock.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:23 PM
Jpach's Avatar
Jpach Jpach is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Santa Clarita
Posts: 4,718
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nrakid88 View Post
Depends, if it came out of a 11.5 inch barrel with 5.5 inch flash hider, then yeah, it basically is a glorified .22. But if it was out of a 20 inch barrel then I would find that particularly hard to believe, and that operator error (putting rounds in places they won't matter) would be the more important factor.
Fragmentation doesnt mean DRT. Theres lots of stories about the M16 being ineffective in Vietnam. Perhaps the guy got lucky and didnt get hit in any vitals or maybe there wasnt enough vital damage to put him down right there. OR maybe he was a bad ***.

Remember, that one 18-20 year old kid got 13 .223 ballistic tip rds put in him and he was still going. Sometimes people just dont die fast.
__________________
PM or Email me if you have questions: Jpach89@gmail.com

Check out my LMT .308 AR
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotton View Post
I have to try that method of attaching the front of a sling to the gun via pubic hair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomb_on_bus View Post
Best part of buying that stock is it comes with its own complimentary jar of anal lube! There were several flavors to choose from, regular, hot cinnamon, or bacon. Im a man of danger so I chose Hot cinnamon to use with my bump fire buttstock.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:27 PM
Richie Caketown Richie Caketown is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,385
iTrader: 47 / 98%
Default

http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17111.0

careful with some of the pics , should not be viewed at work
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:29 PM
technique's Avatar
technique technique is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Idaho- don't come here.
Posts: 10,549
iTrader: 77 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpach View Post
Somebody needs to make a thin jacketed-fragmenting ballistic tip .50 BMG bullet. Perhaps in the 500-550gr range. That would DESTROY.

It would be like a varmint grenade, for people.
__________________
07/02 Out of State FFL

California Uber Alles, California Uber Alles
Uber Alles California, Uber Alles California

I am Governor Jerry Brown, My aura smiles and never frowns, Soon I will be President...
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:29 PM
Kerplow's Avatar
Kerplow Kerplow is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Slumington Beach
Posts: 8,160
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie Caketown View Post
http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17111.0

careful with some of the pics , should not be viewed at work
wow, thats impressive and grody!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:34 PM
Jpach's Avatar
Jpach Jpach is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Santa Clarita
Posts: 4,718
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by technique View Post
It would be like a varmint grenade, for people.
Hahahahaha. That just gave me a really interesting video idea. You know the slow-mo videos they make for the varmint grenades exploding on grapes and stuff like that? THIS video would be the same, but instead of grapes, its people exploding/rapidly expanding very slowly haha. We can get the test subjects from Chinese prisons
__________________
PM or Email me if you have questions: Jpach89@gmail.com

Check out my LMT .308 AR
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotton View Post
I have to try that method of attaching the front of a sling to the gun via pubic hair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomb_on_bus View Post
Best part of buying that stock is it comes with its own complimentary jar of anal lube! There were several flavors to choose from, regular, hot cinnamon, or bacon. Im a man of danger so I chose Hot cinnamon to use with my bump fire buttstock.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:35 PM
Alaric's Avatar
Alaric Alaric is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Midcoast Maine
Posts: 3,210
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpach View Post
Somebody needs to make a thin jacketed-fragmenting ballistic tip .50 BMG bullet. Perhaps in the 500-550gr range. That would DESTROY.
You mean something like a .50 Beowulf hollowpoint? They're not quite as heavy as what you mention though.
__________________
Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense?

-Patrick Henry
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:49 PM
Jpach's Avatar
Jpach Jpach is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Santa Clarita
Posts: 4,718
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaric View Post
You mean something like a .50 Beowulf hollowpoint? They're not quite as heavy as what you mention though.
Something a bit more....EXPLOSIVE And heavier of course. Flying at much faster velocities. There is a mandatory skin-fat-liver-scalp-eyeball mushroom cloud-effect for the bullet impact as well.

Reminds me of the ploom of fur I saw in the distance after shooting at a rabbit about 150-200yds away with my ak-74. At that distance with the jack rabbits being so well camoflauged, the ploom of fur is the only way you know that you hit em.
__________________
PM or Email me if you have questions: Jpach89@gmail.com

Check out my LMT .308 AR
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotton View Post
I have to try that method of attaching the front of a sling to the gun via pubic hair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomb_on_bus View Post
Best part of buying that stock is it comes with its own complimentary jar of anal lube! There were several flavors to choose from, regular, hot cinnamon, or bacon. Im a man of danger so I chose Hot cinnamon to use with my bump fire buttstock.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-07-2010, 11:27 PM
Toolbox X's Avatar
Toolbox X Toolbox X is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 2,504
iTrader: 60 / 100%
Default

I could talk for days about this. A FMJ 5.56 round will definitely ruin someone's day. However, 5.56 FMJ is not very effective at immediate incapacitation when compared to other calibers. The 77gr mk 262 and Hornady 75gr rounds are considerably more effective, as are .223 soft point rounds. 5.56 m193 will be very effective if you use an original 20" 1/14" twist barrel because the round will not be well stablized and will tumble like crazy. That is why the 5.56 round was adopted. The problem was the lack of stablization totally screwed up long range accuracy. Changing the rifling twist to 1/7 or 1/9 fixed the long range accuracy problem, but made the round far less devastating in terms of terminal wound ballistics.

.308 on the other hand just flat out destroys the target. It is my choice.

My favorite 5.56 m855 story was from a SAW gunner who was storming a house in Iraq. The soldier got separated from his men and was attacked by an enemy 10 feet away. The soldier shot the enemy 7 or 8 time center mass. The bad guy fell down, got back up, ran up the stairs and lobbed hand grenades down at the soldier for another 10 to 15 minutes before he died.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-08-2010, 12:41 AM
J_Rock J_Rock is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: around Sac
Posts: 2,055
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

There is no solid answer to this question. For instance a fragmenting 5.56 FMJ or BTHP will do more damage than a non-fragmenting 7.62 NATO FMJ. Once you get a 7.62 NATO round that fragments then the 7.62 will win out. In essence it all depends on the bullet choice. I would suggest you look at this.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...rnadyRifle.htm

The difference between a 5.56 75gr BTHP and a .308 155gr ballistic tip isnt all that huge but the .308 does win out and its by far the most devastating .308 bullet on soft tissue.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-08-2010, 1:06 AM
aplinker's Avatar
aplinker aplinker is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: West LA
Posts: 16,822
iTrader: 92 / 100%
Default

The OP is based on a pigeon-hole argument.

I know you know this...

The solid answer here is data can be manipulated to fit any conclusion and it's far more complex than people try to nutshell.

You have to be VERY specific about the conditions & loading when making a comparison.

I will say this, 5.56 is underrated, especially with the most modern loadings.

I don't think there are too many people who would argue that 5.56 is selected over .308 because of its efficacy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Rock View Post
There is no solid answer to this question. For instance a fragmenting 5.56 FMJ or BTHP will do more damage than a non-fragmenting 7.62 NATO FMJ. Once you get a 7.62 NATO round that fragments then the 7.62 will win out. In essence it all depends on the bullet choice. I would suggest you look at this.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...rnadyRifle.htm

The difference between a 5.56 75gr BTHP and a .308 155gr ballistic tip isnt all that huge but the .308 does win out and its by far the most devastating .308 bullet on soft tissue.
__________________

Google Map of OLL Dealers

List of CA-friendly Manufacturers, Dealers, Middlemen, and Magazine rebuild kit dealers
Click me-->So you're a n00b and you want to build an AR? <--Click me
This post is based on actual events. Some facts may be altered for dramatic purposes. All posts are pure opinion. All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental, and should not be construed.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-08-2010, 2:02 AM
J_Rock J_Rock is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: around Sac
Posts: 2,055
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aplinker View Post
The OP is based on a pigeon-hole argument.

I know you know this...

The solid answer here is data can be manipulated to fit any conclusion and it's far more complex than people try to nutshell.

You have to be VERY specific about the conditions & loading when making a comparison.

I will say this, 5.56 is underrated, especially with the most modern loadings.

I don't think there are too many people who would argue that 5.56 is selected over .308 because of its efficacy.
Yeah, I like to play devils advocate sometimes.

Like pinker said, with modern loadings 5.56 can hold its own against the .308. While the .308 offers improved terminal ballistics you pay for that increase in weight, recoil, muzzle flash ect.

In the end, what you have to realize that killing bad guys is a system function that relies on training: tactics and marksmanship, weapon mechanics, optics and bullet lethality.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 02-08-2010, 8:03 AM
nrakid88's Avatar
nrakid88 nrakid88 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Santa Clarita
Posts: 3,285
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Rock View Post
There is no solid answer to this question. For instance a fragmenting 5.56 FMJ or BTHP will do more damage than a non-fragmenting 7.62 NATO FMJ. Once you get a 7.62 NATO round that fragments then the 7.62 will win out. In essence it all depends on the bullet choice. I would suggest you look at this.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...rnadyRifle.htm

The difference between a 5.56 75gr BTHP and a .308 155gr ballistic tip isnt all that huge but the .308 does win out and its by far the most devastating .308 bullet on soft tissue.
Wow, its interesting how marginally better the .308 is compared to those 75 grain .223's.
__________________

5.56 vs. 308? http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=267737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
You are not a mall ninja. You are a defender of mall ninjas.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-08-2010, 8:17 AM
bakokid bakokid is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 163
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

ya the 5.56 might win in extreme instances. but the majority of the time 308 is gonna be the best bet. if ur target has body armor, any kind of cover, or any kind of range. not to mention the 5.56 is made for the 20" barrel and everyone is moving to the shorter barrels
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-08-2010, 8:53 AM
Toolbox X's Avatar
Toolbox X Toolbox X is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 2,504
iTrader: 60 / 100%
Default

Two more things you should know:
1. Temporary cavity means nothing.
2. Hydrostatic shock is not real.

Bullets do funny things. Really funny things. Sometimes they create far more devistation than thought possible. Sometimes they do damn near nothing. When you are deciding on a bullet for a specific job it is best to not count on gimmicks that may or may not happen. Hollow points might not expand. Bullets might not fragment. In the end the only thing you can count on is the fact that the bigger and heavier a bullet is, and the faster it is going, the more damage it will probably do to the target. Even then, don't count on that.

I like .45 and .308 because they rely the least on bullet magic to make them effective. Still, bullets are not a very efficient way to incapacitate a threat. Don't ever put that much faith into their performance.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-08-2010, 9:03 AM
Toolbox X's Avatar
Toolbox X Toolbox X is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 2,504
iTrader: 60 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nrakid88 View Post
Wow, its interesting how marginally better the .308 is compared to those 75 grain .223's.
Don't get too caught up in those pictures. The real world is not gelatin. .308 is a whole class above .223 in terms of power and effectiveness.

My friends and I have quickly chopped down trees with .308, while those same trees simply laughed at all the .223 we threw at them.

I'm not saying .223 isn't effective at stopping bad guys. I love some of those heavy 77gr and 75gr loads. I'm just saying it isn't wise to put too much weight behind jello. It's not the whole story. Not even close.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-08-2010, 11:41 AM
Jpach's Avatar
Jpach Jpach is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Santa Clarita
Posts: 4,718
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox X View Post
Don't get too caught up in those pictures. The real world is not gelatin. .308 is a whole class above .223 in terms of power and effectiveness.

My friends and I have quickly chopped down trees with .308, while those same trees simply laughed at all the .223 we threw at them.

I'm not saying .223 isn't effective at stopping bad guys. I love some of those heavy 77gr and 75gr loads. I'm just saying it isn't wise to put too much weight behind jello. It's not the whole story. Not even close
.
I love you
__________________
PM or Email me if you have questions: Jpach89@gmail.com

Check out my LMT .308 AR
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotton View Post
I have to try that method of attaching the front of a sling to the gun via pubic hair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomb_on_bus View Post
Best part of buying that stock is it comes with its own complimentary jar of anal lube! There were several flavors to choose from, regular, hot cinnamon, or bacon. Im a man of danger so I chose Hot cinnamon to use with my bump fire buttstock.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-08-2010, 12:02 PM
Jpach's Avatar
Jpach Jpach is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Santa Clarita
Posts: 4,718
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox X View Post
Two more things you should know:
1. Temporary cavity means nothing. 2. Hydrostatic shock is not real.
You sure? I shot a bunny with .223 FMJ and it exploded. I shot it in the arm area and the entire abdomen was split open and there wasnt that big of an exit hole. Blood, guts, spit and *** was everywhere. And that arm was dangling by some connective tissues that I couldnt ID.

From what Ive seen, if the temporary cavity exceeds the dementions of a body/body part, there is serious devastation in the form of explosions and/or big tears.

Did you see that guy who got shot in the thigh with the m193 from a few feet away? Allegedly the bullet didnt even strike the femur but it was destroyed. And the muscles and skin were torn in places not too close to the fragmentation. I cant say that this was the direct cause of the temporary cavity but I definitely wouldnt be surprised if that played a good part in the leg explosion.
__________________
PM or Email me if you have questions: Jpach89@gmail.com

Check out my LMT .308 AR
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotton View Post
I have to try that method of attaching the front of a sling to the gun via pubic hair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomb_on_bus View Post
Best part of buying that stock is it comes with its own complimentary jar of anal lube! There were several flavors to choose from, regular, hot cinnamon, or bacon. Im a man of danger so I chose Hot cinnamon to use with my bump fire buttstock.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-08-2010, 12:08 PM
J_Rock J_Rock is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: around Sac
Posts: 2,055
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox X View Post
Two more things you should know:
1. Temporary cavity means nothing.
2. Hydrostatic shock is not real.

Bullets do funny things. Really funny things. Sometimes they create far more devistation than thought possible. Sometimes they do damn near nothing. When you are deciding on a bullet for a specific job it is best to not count on gimmicks that may or may not happen. Hollow points might not expand. Bullets might not fragment. In the end the only thing you can count on is the fact that the bigger and heavier a bullet is, and the faster it is going, the more damage it will probably do to the target. Even then, don't count on that.

I like .45 and .308 because they rely the least on bullet magic to make them effective. Still, bullets are not a very efficient way to incapacitate a threat. Don't ever put that much faith into their performance.
Actually its more accurate to say that temporary cavity does nothing BY ITSELF, but you forget the mechanism of damage by fragmentation. Remember the temporary cavity follows the fragmentation of bullet. What do you think happens when you have tissue that is shredded by fragments then is stretched by the temporary cavity?

And yes even a bone as thick as the femur can be fractured by temporary cavitation of the bullet passes close enough to it but its still pretty rare

http://www.ramcjournal.com/2001/woun...ct/clasper.pdf

But generally most tissue is elastic enough not to be affected by temporary cavitation by itself.

Last edited by J_Rock; 02-08-2010 at 12:16 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-08-2010, 1:07 PM
Sheepdog1968's Avatar
Sheepdog1968 Sheepdog1968 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,874
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

The good news is that both of these are better than a pistol cartridge. There are pros and cons to each depending on the situation. I wouldn't feel underarmed with a 223. I think the most important criteria is good shot placement while people are shooting at you. FWIW, I'm sure these caliber discussions have been going on since firearms were invented.
__________________
I think Thor's hammer was an 45-70 lever action loaded with Garrett cartridges.

I find that 90% of the questions asked here have been answered 20 or more years ago by Jeff in hid Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip books.


"Taking a rifle to a gunfight is the equivalent of taking a chainsaw to a knife fight." Lt. Col. Grossman in On Combat (Sec 2, Ch 1)
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-08-2010, 1:12 PM
b.faust's Avatar
b.faust b.faust is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,576
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox X View Post
Bullets do funny things. Really funny things. Sometimes they create far more devistation than thought possible. Sometimes they do damn near nothing.
+100 on that.
I've seen deer take a full on chest shot with a .308 and still keep on running. Sheer luck of the draw and nothing was hit that was an immediate show stopper.
A huge eye opener to me as a kid wasn't just shooting the animals, it was cleaning them after and seeing the wounds inflicted internally first hand.

I mentioned here once before, but I shot a rabbit with a .22lr Viper when I was a kid. When I cleaned it, the insides looked like someone had took a blender to it. Never saw it before, and have never seen it since, but as you said, and it's the quote of the day: Bullets do funny things.

B
__________________
______________________________________
http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/donate

DONATE TODAY!!
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-08-2010, 1:32 PM
Barney Gumble's Avatar
Barney Gumble Barney Gumble is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 1,048
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox X View Post
5.56 m193 will be very effective if you use an original 20" 1/14" twist barrel because the round will not be well stablized and will tumble like crazy. That is why the 5.56 round was adopted. The problem was the lack of stablization totally screwed up long range accuracy. Changing the rifling twist to 1/7 or 1/9 fixed the long range accuracy problem, but made the round far less devastating in terms of terminal wound ballistics.
You have been here how long and you still don't know this is false?

The tumbling occurs when the bullet hits something, NOT while it's in flight. Btw this isn't unique to 5.56 projectiles.

The 1/9 twist was adopted to stabilize the SS109 projectile, not to improve accuracy with the 55gr projectile.

1/7 is needed to stabilize match bullets of more than 69gr.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 02-08-2010, 2:35 PM
mls343's Avatar
mls343 mls343 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bay Area, Kalifornia
Posts: 1,535
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

There is no discussion here, the .308 wins every time if you are talking about stopping power. I'm not discrediting the 5.56 as I love to shoot them and have many rifles, but if stopping power is what you are looking for - and your two choices are 5.56 or .308 - then .308 wins.

Simple.
__________________
Next to me in the blackness lay my oiled blue steel beauty. The greatest Christmas gift I had ever received, or would ever receive. Gradually, I drifted off to sleep, pringing ducks on the wing and getting off spectacular hip shots.
- Ralphie from "A Christmas Story"
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 02-08-2010, 2:57 PM
HK Dave's Avatar
HK Dave HK Dave is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Rowland Heights, CA
Posts: 4,965
iTrader: 64 / 100%
Default

My money's on the 308.... i just can't see how the 5.56 can be the same or superior... except that its easier to carry. Then again, I can carry like 30K rounds of 22LR without a problem.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 02-08-2010, 3:15 PM
1988 1988 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: San Jose
Posts: 2,508
iTrader: 201 / 100%
Default

IMHO, it's depending on the load and bullet type, the 308 is for longer range and 5.56 is more of medium range. Within 200 yards, the 308 is overkill, but I don't see many complaint about overkill...
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 02-08-2010, 3:34 PM
choprzrul's Avatar
choprzrul choprzrul is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Coast, CA
Posts: 5,855
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
What is more effective, 5.56 or .308?
Which would YOU rather be shot with?

My std question regarding "this caliber" -vs- "that caliber" arguments.
__________________
"Send money. We have lawyers and guns." -- Gene Hoffman
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02-08-2010, 3:35 PM
Toolbox X's Avatar
Toolbox X Toolbox X is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 2,504
iTrader: 60 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
You have been here how long and you still don't know this is false?

The tumbling occurs when the bullet hits something, NOT while it's in flight. Btw this isn't unique to 5.56 projectiles.

The 1/9 twist was adopted to stabilize the SS109 projectile, not to improve accuracy with the 55gr projectile.

1/7 is needed to stabilize match bullets of more than 69gr.
I said "destablized", not flying sideways. I understand the confusion though. A destablized bullet will go crazy when it hits flesh, spinning and tumbling. The wounds observed by the original M16's were amazing. A stablized bullet will not go as crazy when it hits flesh because it is so stable when it hits. It will still make a mess, but not as much. It is also more likely to go straight through a target.

I'll take your word about the 1/9 barrel as I'm not certain about that. I know the 1/7 twist was to stablized tracer rounds because they are so heavy.

Regarding the temporary cavity, I'm not sure I subscribe to the theory that a temp cavity larger than the body would result in an explosion, such as a rabbit. getting hit with a rifle round. Maybe. Perhaps if there was enough room for the temp cavity to form, which usually requires at least a few inches.

I used to shoot squirrels with .303 British FMJ rounds and often I would have to shoot the squirrels multiple times because the bullet would go through the squirrel without killing it. Bullets do crazy things. I can say with certainty that shooting squirrels with .223 soft point ammo is a sight to behold.

Center mass temp cavity has been studied a lot and it has been pretty much proven that internal organs are very elastic and do not sustain damage from temp cavity. If you want someone to die from a gunshot wound you must pierce a major blood source such as an organ or artery so the bullet recipient will bleed to death. Even then nothing is guaranteed. Statistically 80% of people shot with pistols survive. Only 20% of people shot with rifle rounds survive.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 02-08-2010, 3:44 PM
Toolbox X's Avatar
Toolbox X Toolbox X is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 2,504
iTrader: 60 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1988 View Post
IMHO, it's depending on the load and bullet type, the 308 is for longer range and 5.56 is more of medium range. Within 200 yards, the 308 is overkill, but I don't see many complaint about overkill...
The "effective" range of the 14.5" M4 is only 50-60 yards. The 20" barrel effective range is much better at 130-140 yards. After those distances the bullet has slowed down too much to fragment or do amazing things.

Don't get me wrong, getting hit at 300 yards with a .223 out of a M4 will ruin your day! But don't expect the wound to be very special like it would have been if you were shot at 10 yards. .223 bullets decelerate very fast.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 02-08-2010, 3:50 PM
xxsleepyxx xxsleepyxx is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: 626
Posts: 774
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpach View Post
Hahahahaha. That just gave me a really interesting video idea. You know the slow-mo videos they make for the varmint grenades exploding on grapes and stuff like that? THIS video would be the same, but instead of grapes, its people exploding/rapidly expanding very slowly haha. We can get the test subjects from Chinese prisons
is this not racist?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 02-08-2010, 4:21 PM
bakokid bakokid is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 163
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxsleepyxx View Post
is this not racist?
who cares, wwrong forum for th ACLU
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 02-08-2010, 4:36 PM
Barney Gumble's Avatar
Barney Gumble Barney Gumble is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 1,048
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

.308 may have more knockdown power but that doesn't mean it's the right cartridge for every setting.

This is the internet so there's no end to pissing contests about "what's the best." But if you're looking for a pragmatic view on what's the RIGHT cartridge you need to think about what you intend to use it for and what platforms are available. For example for CQB I can't think of a .308 platform out there today that's superior to the M4/AR platform - for that particular use.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 02-08-2010, 5:02 PM
pyro3k2's Avatar
pyro3k2 pyro3k2 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,650
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

This thread is leaning more towards hunter the two legged type of prey so I'm going to side with the .308 on this one, for a few reasons.

When comparing the most common loads for the two rounds 55gr FMJ's and 150gr FMJ's.

1. When fighting a nation that CAN afford to put their war fighters in body armor the .308 does a better job of punching through flak/kevlar/striking plates.
2. hollow points and lighter bullets can be defeated by heavy clothing/IBA resulting in sub-par preformance.
3. Bigger, heavier, and more energy with less varibles in bullet grain and type of bullet.
4. Moral boost for troops knowing they have "the bigger stick."
5. Better range/power ratio at extended ranges.

But when it comes down to it, like many other cal gunners have pointed out, this is the internet so this will end up being an endless pissing contest. Took me a little bit to learn this one, but fanning the fire can be just as much fun as appropriately answering a question. So with this said where are the 6.5 grendel fan boys?
__________________
But I being poor, have only my dreams. I have spread my dreams under your feet. Tread softely, because you tread on my dreams.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 3:21 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.