Defense Shotguns

[tombinghamthegreat]

I'll take tube fed; vs. mag locked... but that's me...

If the saiga shotguns were not mag locked it would be my top pick. For now my simple pump action mossberg 590 is my main choice for HD.

[warpath]

shotgun is the best cqb weapon

[tophatjones]

All are good points, but you don't necessarily have to empty a magazine fed weapon before a reload. You can perform a tactical reload during a lull in fire. With the bullet button and any one of those clever methods of keeping a tool present (like those ring ones), you can make the mag change in under 3 seconds. Thats 10 rounds in each mag (and for non hi cap ban states, there is a 20 round drum coming out from MD arms that supposed to be very reliable). That being said, tube fed is indeed great for topping off rounds, and having rounds present at all times. The drawback is when you need to expend more than 8 rounds. The tube fed mag (just like the mag fed) has its own set of weaknesses and strengths, so classes teach in a manner that maximizes the strengths of the tube fed system. This is why topping rounds off is a fundamental practice taught at combat shotgun classes.

Most combat shotgun classes are currently taught with tube fed mags in mind, since they are the standard. As a result of this, the Saiga has its own set of strengths and weaknesses that aren't addressed as well in a combat class. Therefore, the Saiga would not perform as well on some of the drills. I'm specifically thinking of the one where all shotgunners line up and the first person takes a shot at a target, the second takes a shot, etc and the first person tops off a round into his magazine when the other shooters are all shooting the target. Then the first shooter puts a round in the first target and the second target, and the second shooter puts a round in the first target and the second target, etc. First shooter reloads, etc. Perhaps one day the Saiga or another mag fed gun will become more accepted and the classes will evolve.

Of course, all is most likely moot, because if you shoot ten rounds of 00 buck or 1oz slugs in a HD situation, and the fight is still going on, you've got some major problems.

Uhhmmm... well... yes and no.

You may want to take a combat shotgun class. With a tube fed weapon; you never - wait - until your empty to reload... you continuously top off the weapon; as you move or after you shoot.

With a magazine fed weapon; you fire until empty... then you are out of the fight until you reload.

I'll take tube fed; vs. mag locked... but that's me...

-M3

[tophatjones]

I should point out that two major weaknesses in the Saiga system are its lack of bolt hold open, and the difficulty in inserting a loaded magazine on a closed bolt. The latter would make tactical mag changes difficult. However, there are two aftermarket products which should revolutionize the Saiga concept. One is an automatic bolt hold open from Cobra762, and the other is a mag well from MD arms. These would speed up mag changes immensely, and greatly increase its practicality.

[randy]

One other problem with a Saiga over a tube shotgun. They were out shot with a tube gun at Ft. Benning last year. And they had 10 round mags no mag lock.

And Spyduh I still would not want you for my wing man.

[tophatjones]

One other problem with a Saiga over a tube shotgun. They were out shot with a tube gun at Ft. Benning last year. And they had 10 round mags no mag lock.

And Spyduh I still would not want you for my wing man.

Details, man! I bet we'll see more Saigas in comp when people start catching on. The shotgun crowd is definitely a conservative, seen it all crowd. Even if we see Saigas side by side with tube guns in the future, people will still hate em though. After all, they are supposed to be the Glocks of the shotgun world.

[mcubed4130]

Dont count on your dog in a self defense situation. Dogs are great for warning but they are pretty easy to kill and I dont care how big the dog is. Granted 95% of people will take off when confronted with a 120 LB dog but the 5% that have guns will just shoot it. I would. besides 99% of the time you wont even be home if you get robbed.

Rob thanks for the warning, but you are preaching to the choir.

I'm clear on my dog's usefulness... i.e. enough time to wake up from deep sleep - grab shotgun and prepare weapon to fire. If prep is still in the house - as you said - my dog is probably done; and then it's my turn.

As for the 99% - my place is a bad choice; as it's nearly impossible to predict comings and goings - and the number of times in the past 10 years my place - has been completely empty I can count on a couple fingers.

-M3

[randy]

Depending on how the stage is designed it can favor or kill a Saiga. Taran won the match using a Benelli with an 9 round tube.

[Prowler]

I'll stick with my Benelli M1 Super 90 and I doubt your pump will be faster...

[sloguy]

Yup, the topic is shotguns. But with out getting to much into ammo. Theres nothing wrong with birdshot for HD. It's less likely to penetrate more than 2-3 layers of sheet rock. I'm not out to hurt any family/neighbors that might be behind the wall.

Don't believe me that birdshots just as devasting to a target? Watch what it does at 10 yards to a sheet rock wall. That's roughly 9-10 feet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQngI_r2hQc

Watch what this guy did to his own house w/ birdshot. He's damn lucky no one was behind that wall or he would be in jail and regretting killing a family member every day of his life behind bars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgqbdVFxlkk

Imagine if the invader is 10 yards in front of you. That would be one massive hole in their stomach. You have to remember that it takes a good distance for the BBs to spread out. 10 yards isn't enough distance for it to spread out and will blow a huge hole into the target.

I've shot rabbits, birds, pheasants with a 28" modified choke using #6 shot ranging from 1 feet to 15 feet away. When I walk over the game and it flushes out right in front of me and I fire that close, it's insta mangled meat and makes it inedible. It's not a pretty sight with 1/3 of a rabbit spread across the dirt. I don't even pick it up and put it in my vest cause I don't want blood dripping down my back.

your absolutely 100% wrong about birdshot. it never ceases to amaze me how many uninformed people spout its praise.

how can you trust a round that barely penetrates sheetrock? pellet guns go thru sheetrock. you think a pellet gun is a viable home defense weapon?

[duenor]

If you think that birdshot is the ideal round to defend your house with, you are going to be in for a very rude surprise when you shoot a BG 10 yards away with your gun, right in the chest, and the pellets get stuck in his leather jacket.

My friend, I fired 7 rounds through my Benelli M1s90 only a few weeks ago at a PVC frame with cardboard at angeles. Here is what happened

7 yards - big hole in CARDBOARD. note that people are not made of cardboard
10 yards - spread out damage in cardboard, cracked PVC (I didn't make this shot)
15 yards - scattered all over the cardboard, and BIRDSHOT SPLATTERED ON THE PVC. DIDN'T EVEN PENETRATE.

the pvc looked like someone had taken a pencil and jabbed it a whole bunch of times. not a single puncture or crack at that distance. we moved it out to 25 yards and i might as well have been spitting at the target.

anyway, back to topic.

here's my own list

1. benelli m1s90
2. valtro pm5 / FN semi-auto
3. mossberg 590 a1 with knoxx sidewinder (only if thoroughly tested for reliability)
4. rem 870
5. any quality pump shotgun (moss 500, stevens 520, etc)
6. any quality semi-auto shotgun (rem mod 11, etc)
7. saiga 12 only makes this list at all if the S has HTF and you have popped the maglock, and you have 10 round AGP magazines. I know that personally have NO FAITH whatsoever in my ability to unlock magazines from my gun during a firefight.

[tombinghamthegreat]

your absolutely 100% wrong about birdshot. it never ceases to amaze me how many uninformed people spout its praise.

how can you trust a round that barely penetrates sheetrock? pellet guns go thru sheetrock. you think a pellet gun is a viable home defense weapon?

This is california and i have heard of people thinking airsoft guns are effective in HD.

Anyway does anyone know where i could get a baynet for a mossberg 590 for under 50 dollars? You never know how bad a SD situation could get.

[Dark Water]

I have a Remington 870 and think that is the way to go for home defense. No bird shot here though. It is slug and buckshot for me. Guns are lethal force no matter how you look at it so why dick around?

[X-NewYawker]

Love my M-1 but switched to Knoxx stocked OD green 870 for "psychological reasons"

[Sumo99]

I'll stick with my Benelli M1 Super 90 and I doubt your pump will be faster...

Another Benelli M1 here.

Ever see Tom Knapp shoot a pump shotgun? I know he shoots it faster and more accuratly than I can shoot my semi.