Defense Shotguns

[ZOMBIEHUNTER]

my opinion is nothing is better for home/zombie defense then a shotgun i have a benelli super 90 m1 that is awesome i finally put enough rounds through it to break it in and now it is flawless performance what other shotguns are you guys playing with ?

[Spyduh]

My favorite is still my Mossy 500 20ga I've been using since I was a little kid. Killed so many things with it I lost count

When it's at home I put a 18.5" on it and use it for HD.

The actions slides so smooth it practically feels like my semi shottys. That's how much it's been used =)

[FEDUPWBS]

SAIGA-12

[sloguy]

as long as you guys arent using birdshot, then the shotgun is a fine choice.

[mcubed4130]

as long as you guys arent using birdshot, then the shotgun is a fine choice.

Now now... let's not get into that - AGAIN...

Topic was Shotguns - not the ammo.

My favorite shotgun for HD; is the one I grab 1st - after my dog has already made dog chew toy of the perp - and the perp wasn't smart enough to leave; with the 120+ lb dog chewing on various body parts.

Oh ok... I'm copping out aren't I... I really like my Mossberg 500 12g.

The M1 is also interesting; as long as you use full power loads - which I do.

The Saiga-12 would be in my arsenal already except I'm not fond of mag locks on a HD weapon.

-M3

[smle-man]

Reminton 1187 with rifle sights; Remington 870 3" chamber and Wilson scattergun technologies magazine extention (2 round)



Winchester 97 12 ga takedown with removable choke tube retrofitted.

[Spyduh]

Now now... let's not get into that - AGAIN...

Topic was Shotguns - not the ammo.

Yup, the topic is shotguns. But with out getting to much into ammo. Theres nothing wrong with birdshot for HD. It's less likely to penetrate more than 2-3 layers of sheet rock. I'm not out to hurt any family/neighbors that might be behind the wall.

Don't believe me that birdshots just as devasting to a target? Watch what it does at 10 yards to a sheet rock wall. That's roughly 9-10 feet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQngI_r2hQc

Watch what this guy did to his own house w/ birdshot. He's damn lucky no one was behind that wall or he would be in jail and regretting killing a family member every day of his life behind bars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgqbdVFxlkk

Imagine if the invader is 10 yards in front of you. That would be one massive hole in their stomach. You have to remember that it takes a good distance for the BBs to spread out. 10 yards isn't enough distance for it to spread out and will blow a huge hole into the target.

I've shot rabbits, birds, pheasants with a 28" modified choke using #6 shot ranging from 1 feet to 15 feet away. When I walk over the game and it flushes out right in front of me and I fire that close, it's insta mangled meat and makes it inedible. It's not a pretty sight with 1/3 of a rabbit spread across the dirt. I don't even pick it up and put it in my vest cause I don't want blood dripping down my back.

[tophatjones]

I've thought about using my Saiga for HD. Reloads with the maglock are still quicker than tube fed shotguns. However, the thought of losing the Saiga to police evidence immediately after a defense scenario really makes me want to use something cheap like a Rem 870 instead.

[Spyduh]

My load preference is this.

0. On standby with nothing in the chamber. In hunter safety they always teach you to always unload your gun before climbing over a fence. Dropping a shotgun has a higher probability of accidental discharge. Always your own safety first! It takes less than a second to pump a round it.
1. 1st shot is a warning rubber round.
2. If they keep coming it's #6 birdshot.
3. Again if they continue, which I highly doubt will follow another #6 birdshot.
4. If it becomes a fire fight my next round is loaded with #3 buckshot.
5. If needed the last round is a SLUG that will end the battle

Then theres the discussion of pump vs semi. If you practice and use your shotgun a lot, pumping the next round after the shot is like second nature. It's almost instantaneous and is as fast as a semi. I've ran into a few people heading back to the car after getting my bag limit saying that they could have sworn that it sounded like I was using a semi because the shot bursts were so tightly together. With anything, practice makes perfect.

[randy]

Spyduh after reading your shotgun load out. I don't want you for my wing man.

[rastro]

I've thought about using my Saiga for HD. Reloads with the maglock are still quicker than tube fed shotguns. However, the thought of losing the Saiga to police evidence immediately after a defense scenario really makes me want to use something cheap like a Rem 870 instead.

Ditto on that. While I love my Saiga and a reload with a maglocked ten-rounder is still quicker than shucking seven rounds into a tube, I don't feel like waiting 3-6 months to get it back from the police pending the investigation.

I've picked up an plain-jane 870 express and plan on running a few hundred rounds of #1/00 buck and slugs through it for patterning purposes and making sure it will be reliable enough for bedside HD.

My Saigas are purely for range use/zombie defense.

Spyduh, why 1st round as warning/rubber round? Discharge of a firearm in self-defense implies deadly force was needed. If you don't put them down for good, that gives them time to arm themselves and put yourself in a two-way firing line.

I won't even mention the subsequent civil lawsuit filed by the bad guy after you have taken away their means to support themselves and feed their family.

And finally, have you seen what rubber/non-lethal rounds and #6 birdshot do to zombies? It just pisses them off, and you alerted the rest of the zombies in the area to your presence!

Some good reading on ammo choices:
Shotgunworld 12 gauge wound profiles
Shotgun terminal ballistics

[Rob454]

- after my dog has already made dog chew toy of the perp - and the perp wasn't smart enough to leave; with the 120+ lb dog chewing on various body parts.

Dont count on your dog in a self defense situation. Dogs are great for warning but they are pretty easy to kill and I dont care how big the dog is. Granted 95% of people will take off when confronted with a 120 LB dog but the 5% that have guns will just shoot it. I would. besides 99% of the time you wont even be home if you get robbed.

[/QUOTE]
Spyduh, why 1st round as warning/rubber round? Discharge of a firearm in self-defense implies deadly force was needed. If you don't put them down for good, that gives them time to arm themselves and put yourself in a two-way firing line.
[/QUOTE]

You ever been shot with a rubber round? My buddy got shot with a bean bag round and basically he instantly dropped to the ground and it was done. And this guy is by no means a wuss but when that bean bag hit him the fight went out of him. I just wish I had it on video.

[rastro]

Dont count on your dog in a self defense situation. Dogs are great for warning but they are pretty easy to kill and I dont care how big the dog is. Granted 95% of people will take off when confronted with a 120 LB dog but the 5% that have guns will just shoot it. I would. besides 99% of the time you wont even be home if you get robbed.

Spyduh, why 1st round as warning/rubber round? Discharge of a firearm in self-defense implies deadly force was needed. If you don't put them down for good, that gives them time to arm themselves and put yourself in a two-way firing line.
[/quote]

You ever been shot with a rubber round? My buddy got shot with a bean bag round and basically he instantly dropped to the ground and it was done. And this guy is by no means a wuss but when that bean bag hit him the fight went out of him. I just wish I had it on video.[/quote]
No.

Your friend is still alive right? A good shot with a less-than-lethal round should put the person down and take the fight out of them. However, eventually they should get up and still be around to fight another day.

What was the distance of engagement with your friend? Hit center-mass/arm/leg? Was it a controlled situation for training purposes?

How long was your friend down after the bean bag round? Five minutes? Ten minutes? Then he got up, did a lot of cursing and promised to never do that again?

My point was that using a rubber bullet DESIGNED to temporarily incapacitate in a life-threatening self-defense situation is bad. Discharge of a firearm in self-defense implies deadly force was necessary.

[John Browning]

My load preference is this.

0. On standby with nothing in the chamber. In hunter safety they always teach you to always unload your gun before climbing over a fence. Dropping a shotgun has a higher probability of accidental discharge. Always your own safety first! It takes less than a second to pump a round it.
1. 1st shot is a warning rubber round.
2. If they keep coming it's #6 birdshot.
3. Again if they continue, which I highly doubt will follow another #6 birdshot.
4. If it becomes a fire fight my next round is loaded with #3 buckshot.
5. If needed the last round is a SLUG that will end the battle

Then theres the discussion of pump vs semi. If you practice and use your shotgun a lot, pumping the next round after the shot is like second nature. It's almost instantaneous and is as fast as a semi. I've ran into a few people heading back to the car after getting my bag limit saying that they could have sworn that it sounded like I was using a semi because the shot bursts were so tightly together. With anything, practice makes perfect.

If you know that is how the gunfight is going to go down, then you shouldn't even need a gun. Use your apparent ability to see the future to call the cops 10 minutes before they get there. What if there are multiple threats? What if they are barricaded and firing from behind a wall? What if the first shot is your only chance to stop them before they kill you or someone in your home?

A life or death situation is a rapidly evolving, dynamic, stressful and confusing experience. You can never know what might happen. You want to have to do as little thinking as possible. That means a shotgun you can fire without short stroking or jamming, and defintely not needing to keep track of what round you are on. Your first shot should be just as deadly as your last. Semi-autos and 00 buck are king of this castle.

Your advice is dangerous and I highly suggest you rethink it.

[mcubed4130]

I've thought about using my Saiga for HD. Reloads with the maglock are still quicker than tube fed shotguns...

Uhhmmm... well... yes and no.

You may want to take a combat shotgun class. With a tube fed weapon; you never - wait - until your empty to reload... you continuously top off the weapon; as you move or after you shoot.

With a magazine fed weapon; you fire until empty... then you are out of the fight until you reload.

I'll take tube fed; vs. mag locked... but that's me...

-M3