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**CreamyFettucini** · 08-20-2013, 7:05 PM

I would not trust my life with LTL rounds. If things get to the point where you need that gun, a law suit will be the last thing on your mind.

**Dattebayo** · 08-20-2013, 7:12 PM

Originally posted by ROAD_DOG

I'm not sure if this had been brought up but I was thinking of getting these

12 Gauge "FIRE ANTS" Stinger Law Enforcement Projectile 5Rd Box

http://www.firequest.com/NL124.html

Order# NL124 "FIRE ANTS" Stinger Projectile - 5rds per box DESCRIPTION: This Mil-Spec Compliant 12 gauge round which fires approximately 23, .32 caliber rubber projectiles. This round is designed for single or multiple target engagements allowing escalation of force from a distance prior to use of lethal means. The Fire Ants Round accommodates tactical situations from 10 to 30 feet. 12-Gauge Round is intended to be direct or skip-fired at the discretion of the operator, but it is necessary to keep the trajectory low so the projectile spread will not engage the subject above the breast line. INCAPACITATION MECHANISM: The Fire Ants Round fires 23 each, .32 Caliber rubber projectiles, producing excruciating pain thru transfer of 4 foot pounds of energy by each projectile for a total of 72 foot pounds when all projectiles strike a target. The stinging effect caused is designed to result in behavior modifications or retreat away from officers or immediate response to issued commands. Background: The Fire Antz projectile was developed for the U.S. Military and is one of the mainstays in the less lethal inventory. The skip form of firing can be adversely affected by snow, mud and soft grassy terrain. The High Velocity Hornets Nest is designed as a behavior modification round, which is fired using conventional target acquisition techniques. PHYSICAL DATA: * Diameter 12-Gauge* Length 2.44 in / 6.2 cm* Projectiles 23* Velocity 500 fps / 152 mps* Maximum Effective Range 25 feet / 7.6 meters  PROJECTILE SPECIFICATIONS:* Caliber 32* Diameter 0.32 in / 0.81 cm* Material Rubber* Hardness 75 Durometer * Weight 0.01 oz / 0.30 g  A consideration by most courts when determining the legitimacy of a self-defense shooting is the escalation of force. When a less than lethal shell is used as the first round, knowledgeable courts and boards recognize this type of round as a legitimate attempt to defend without intent of causing lethal injury. The desired effect should be incapacitation of the intended subject to a point which allows the defender to take control of the situation, and make a decision on what follow up actions are required. As with any ammunition the user should immediately assess the situation and be prepared to take necessary folllow-up actions should the desired result not be achieved. In the 1970's the U.S. Army Land Warfare Laboratory conducted research and published a report on blunt impact weapons which resulted in a finding that impact energies between 30 and 90 foot pound are 'dangerous', i.e. contusions, abrasions, broken ribs, concussions, loss of the eyes or superficial organ damage, whereas 'Severe Damage' occurs if impact exceeds 90 foot pounds. (ibid., p.337). 'Severe Damage' includes serious skin lacerations, massive skull fractures, rupture of the heart and kidney, fragmentation of the liver, and hemorrhages. This ammunition has a high probability of being lethal or producing Severe Damage as defined above at less than 5yds. This item is restricted in the following cities and/or states: AK, CA, HI, MA, NY, APO's, FPO's, PO Box's, Washington DC; Chicago. FOID Required for all IL Cities. ; Please check your local State, County and City laws for restrictions on ammunition.

Now the way I would have these loaded is first 2 rounds to be fired would these less then lethal than followed by lethal rounds. Is this a good idea and a way of reducing lawsuit b the criminal or the family members of the criminal because of excessive force and blah blah. I would to hear what everyone input is on these for home defense.

This will end up in a lawsuit for you regardless if someone is invading your home or not. You are not allow to shoot someone with the intent to maim. If you pull that trigger and shoot someone, it better be to kill. If you are aiming for anything but the head or center mass with intent to kill, they could draw a case against you.

**ROAD_DOG** · 08-20-2013, 8:16 PM

Ok I understand what has been said but if the intruder would be rushing at me or my family with a weapon then I would yes I would shoot to stop the attack. My intent is not to kill or maim but if it came to it then it is something I will do to defend my family from a threat.

**jdben92883** · 08-20-2013, 8:51 PM

I think you'd be nuts to put those into a HD weapon. An armed intruder is in your house and you want the first 2 rounds to be some ridiculously priced insects???

**m16** · 08-20-2013, 8:54 PM

Originally posted by ROAD_DOG

Is this a good idea

No.

Stick with what works.

Buckshot and slugs.

**hardlyworking** · 08-20-2013, 9:05 PM

I had it explained to me this way:

Cops use Less-Lethal in a riot situation so it must be good right?

Wrong!

The cops using Less-Lethal have doods A, B and C right next to them
A - Holds the full body shield
B - Holds the AR cocked and locked
C - Holds the radio for MOAR COPS!

In a self/home-defense situation, you have no backup. If you are shooting to stop a threat, you are shooting to stop a threat RIGHT THE F' NOW, because YOU are all you've got.

If that helps you re-evaluate the use of Less-Lethal in the home, I'm happy to have helped.

**CreamyFettucini** · 08-20-2013, 9:07 PM

Originally posted by ROAD_DOG

Ok I understand what has been said but if the intruder would be rushing at me or my family with a weapon then I would yes I would shoot to stop the attack. My intent is not to kill or maim but if it came to it then it is something I will do to defend my family from a threat.

Good luck getting to that third shot with some guy on PCP rushing you and your adrenaline pumping.

**ROAD_DOG** · 08-20-2013, 9:30 PM

Ahhhhhh I guess I should stick with bird shot since that is all I can get around here buck shot is hard to come by every time my nearest Walmart store is stocked with some they sell out before I can make it half way I live like 40 minutes from the nearest Walmart.......

**CreamyFettucini** · 08-20-2013, 9:37 PM

cabelas is your friend

**m16** · 08-20-2013, 9:42 PM

Do yourself a favor, order some buckshot.

Many, many people have done gelatin tests with various birdshot loads and they always come to the same conclusion: birdshot will not consistently penetrate deep enough to hit the vitals.

When you need to neutralize an immediate threat, don't gamble on a load that is intended for small birds.

**ROAD_DOG** · 08-20-2013, 9:48 PM

Originally posted by CreamyFettucini

cabelas is your friend

Cool thanks bro....... One question I heard from a co-worker that even for home defense in California you can only have 3 rounds in your shot gun, I know this is only when your hunting but I wanted to ask if this is true but forgive the silly question...

**HOGLEG** · 08-20-2013, 9:53 PM

You are correct. The three shot limiter is for hunting.

Join the Cabellas credit card and get $20.00 off your first order, five dollar shipping on almost all orders, and get points to spend for each dollar spent.

**ROAD_DOG** · 08-20-2013, 9:54 PM

Originally posted by HOGLEG

You are correct. The three slug limiter is for hunting.

Yeah I thought so..

**ROAD_DOG** · 08-20-2013, 9:56 PM

Originally posted by m16

Do yourself a favor, order some buckshot.

Many, many people have done gelatin tests with various birdshot loads and they always come to the same conclusion: birdshot will not consistently penetrate deep enough to hit the vitals.

When you need to neutralize an immediate threat, don't gamble on a load that is intended for small birds.

Yeah I hear you but something is better then nothing ain't no one going want to get hit whether its bird shot or buck shot....

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