Why is .410 weak for HD?

[ByTheNumbers]

410 buck shot wounds just as well as 12 gauge but theres less pellets and by comparison less wounding.

sloguy, looking at your two previous posts, I can't really tell if you think .410 is or isn't viable for HD since you say both positive and negative things. Are you saying .410 is viable with buckshot but worse than some pistols with slugs? Thanks.

[ByTheNumbers]

I was looking up something about .410 slugs based on one of sloguy's comments and I ran across this interesting reprint of a Guns Magazine article about .410 slug and buckshot performance. Actually, the points made echo what sloguy was saying about slug vs buckshot in the .410. It's an interesting read.

Based on other people's comments so far plus this article I just linked to, it seems like .410 loaded with buckshot is far from something to be waved away as some "pea shooter" for HD.

One comment from the article that particularly interested me--because I have quite sensitive ears--was the writer's opinion about the muzzle blast using buckshot in the .410. He compared it to the report of a .38 pistol, with minimal recoil. So, the sound of a .38 but launching 5 00 buck pellets at your target. Not bad.

[sloguy]

sloguy, looking at your two previous posts, I can't really tell if you think .410 is or isn't viable for HD since you say both positive and negative things. Are you saying .410 is viable with buckshot but worse than some pistols with slugs? Thanks.

buckshot from a 410 penetrates as well as buckshot from any other gauge, theres just less of them. picture 3 32acp bullets. thats pretty much what 410 buckshot does. compare with 12 gauge buck which is 9 pellet , 12 pellet,up to 19 pellet. 19 32acp bullets all in a small group.

a 410 slug acts kinda like a glasser safety slug, it causes shallow, spectacular wounds. http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
the 410 slug falls short. its shallow wound depth doesnt reach minimum recomended depth.

i think the 410 is better with buckshot than with slugs. there are better choices and i consider any decent size pistol to be a better choice.

keep in mind that if a badguy has a weapon and its in front of him your view of him will have a good chance of needing to go thru his arm before reaching his chest. if the 410 slug contacts his arm there goes your penetration. you have to be able to punch thru that outreached arm and get into his chest far enough to damage him enough to make him stop.

[ByTheNumbers]

a 410 slug acts kinda like a glasser safety slug, it causes shallow, spectacular wounds. http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

sloguy, on that website, are you referencing the wound profile of the 12ga slug, or the .357 Glaser safety slug? The 12ga slug certainly has sufficient penetration according to its profile. I assume you're referring to the Glaser, since the penetration is only around 6 inches but the wound cavity looks impressive within that 6 inches.

Isn't the 12ga slug also soft lead? Wouldn't a .410 slug act more like its 12ga big brother than a Glaser? According to Fackler's wound profile for the 12ga slug, it didn't break up.

I know, questions, questions.

[maxicon]

Aside from the terminal ballistics issues, there aren't that many .410 shotguns designed for HD with a capacity of more than 4 or 5 rounds.

Sure, there are a few - the Cobray Baby Street Sweeper, aka the SWD Ladies Home Companion or Mini Street Sweeper, is classified as a pistol and has a 12 round rotary drum , and also shoots .45 LC. It's not really practical, both because it's expensive, and legality in California would be a problem.

http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0600/695.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/976904397/Guns/Pistols/Cobray-Pistols/LADIES_HOME_COMPANION_STREET_SWEEPE.htm

I'm a big fan of the .410, despite the limited ammo availability, and it would be a better HD weapon than a .22, but I'd take a 9mm semi or a .38/.357 revolver any day.

[sloguy]

Aside from the terminal ballistics issues, there aren't that many .410 shotguns designed for HD with a capacity of more than 4 or 5 rounds.

Sure, there are a few - the Cobray Baby Street Sweeper, aka the SWD Ladies Home Companion or Mini Street Sweeper, is classified as a pistol and has a 12 round rotary drum , and also shoots .45 LC. It's not really practical, both because it's expensive, and legality in California would be a problem.

http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0600/695.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/976904397/Guns/Pistols/Cobray-Pistols/LADIES_HOME_COMPANION_STREET_SWEEPE.htm

I'm a big fan of the .410, despite the limited ammo availability, and it would be a better HD weapon than a .22, but I'd take a 9mm semi or a .38/.357 revolver any day.

a 22lr rifle penetrates 9-14 inches in gel. and you have 10 shots with most automatics and reloads fast. the 22 isnt as bad as many people think.

as you were saying, there are very few good hd 410. id like to see a semi auto 10 round magazine fed. in that case slugs would be quite useful as you could pretty much rapidly follow up each shot with another until the badguy was mulch.

[sloguy]

sloguy, on that website, are you referencing the wound profile of the 12ga slug, or the .357 Glaser safety slug? The 12ga slug certainly has sufficient penetration according to its profile. I assume you're referring to the Glaser, since the penetration is only around 6 inches but the wound cavity looks impressive within that 6 inches.

Isn't the 12ga slug also soft lead? Wouldn't a .410 slug act more like its 12ga big brother than a Glaser? According to Fackler's wound profile for the 12ga slug, it didn't break up.

I know, questions, questions.

crap, sorry, i linked to the wrong page. here ya go. http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

this one will talk about minimum depth( unless i linked to the wrong one again)

[AJAX22]

You guys have never taken a look at the 'ladies home companion'

have you?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/976904397/Guns/Pistols/Cobray-Pistols/LADIES_HOME_COMPANION_STREET_SWEEPE.htm

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0600/695.htm

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=89843673

[aplinker]

A lot of the requirements for penetration, etc, have to do with optimizing damage. Stopping power comes from bleeding (slow), heart punctures (faster) or neural severing (fastest). The 2nd two, which are stops, take penetration. The 1st one is not a guaranteed stop.

Sure, the safety slug does damage in the first few inches, but it wouldn't reach vital organs that end the fight immediately.

That's the reasoning of the tests, not mine.

[M. Sage]

as you were saying, there are very few good hd 410. id like to see a semi auto 10 round magazine fed. in that case slugs would be quite useful as you could pretty much rapidly follow up each shot with another until the badguy was mulch.

Saiga 410, but remember that semi-auto shotguns with detachable magazines are illegal.

Still, I'd rather reload by bullet-button type lock rather than stuff round after round into a tube.

By the way, this site has a ton of gelatin tests.

[sloguy]

You guys have never taken a look at the 'ladies home companion'

have you?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/976904397/Guns/Pistols/Cobray-Pistols/LADIES_HOME_COMPANION_STREET_SWEEPE.htm

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0600/695.htm

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=89843673

yeah but thats way expensive and you can buy a ar for way less. so, for shizzles and giggles i just tried loading 410 slugs into a ar magazine. they seem to be slightly too long. but a slight mod to ammo i think they would fit. food for thought?

another idea( if the soft lead nature of the 410 foster slug was what you wanted) would be loading the slugs into a different case. perhapse a widened 762x39 case? or a 40sw case? because of the lighter bullet( 410 slug is 92 grain, and hollow) you could raise the pressure on the 40 cal. bump that velocity up and maybe see some crazy terminal ballistics. the 40 cal wouldnt require a custom chamber. would be a sweet alternative to glassers.

[aplinker]

I agree, but part of the advantage of a shotgun is its versatility on the fly. You can drop a single slug round in, if needed. You can't do that with a BB.

Saiga 410, but remember that semi-auto shotguns with detachable magazines are illegal.

Still, I'd rather reload by bullet-button type lock rather than stuff round after round into a tube.

By the way, this site has a ton of gelatin tests.

[ByTheNumbers]

By the way, this site has a ton of gelatin tests.

Thanks for that link, Sage. Some very interesting results. I was looking at the buckshot and slug performance for the .410 here. As sloguy was mentioning, .410 slug penetration was rather minimal. I'm still confused about that. You generally hear the advice not to use slugs for HD due to its fearsome penetrative abilities, and if you look at the results for the 12 ga slug, I see where that advice comes from. I'm curious why the .410 slug is so much less effective and just turns into lead dust while the 12 ga slug stays intact? Is it just the smaller mass of the .410 slug?

Anyway, unlike the slug, the .410 000 buckshot results do seem to indicate that the .410 can be useful in an HD situation. Sufficient penetration to hit vital organs. Again, I'm not asking if the .410 can "keep up" with the 12 or 20 or whether it's as good as X or Y--just whether the .410 is a viable HD weapon in and of itself. So far, I think the answer seems to be yes when using buckshot.

[sloguy]

I'm curious why the .410 slug is so much less effective and just turns into lead dust while the 12 ga slug stays intact? Is it just the smaller mass of the .410 slug?

its just soft. 12 gauge slugs are a different kind of lead. and 12 gauge slugs are thicker. they are both foster slugs( meaning a bowl shape, they are hollow inside).

[M. Sage]

Again, I'm not asking if the .410 can "keep up" with the 12 or 20 or whether it's as good as X or Y--just whether the .410 is a viable HD weapon in and of itself. So far, I think the answer seems to be yes when using buckshot.

I understand what you're asking. For me, the answer would be yes, it's definitely viable. My wife would undoubtedly be more comfortable with the recoil of a .410 than she would with a 12 or 20 gauge.

I remember seeing someone out there made a .410 AR upper.

I think the reason .410 slugs break up like that is because they're too soft and have too little mass. Load a jacketed bullet in there, and I think you'd be good to go.