Why is .410 weak for HD?

[ByTheNumbers]

I ask this question out of a genuine curiosity to hear other people's thoughts on the topic, not to be a troll--why is .410 considered weak for HD?

Whenever the question of HD weapons come up, a shottie is often the most commonly suggested weapon. Then, when it comes to gauge, 12 or 20 have lot's of support. However, .410 is almost universally dismissed for HD as being too "anemic." My question is, in what way is .410 anemic and too weak for HD? The overall shot mass? The velocity? The pellet size?

I ask because when I was visiting my folks for Xmas vacation, they asked me to dig through their storage room for something, and I ran across an old gun magazine that had an article comparing 12 and .410 loads for HD (12 vs .410 because those are the two extremes of commonly available shotguns). I think the magazine was from the late 80's. I only had time to quickly skim the article, but the writers did the birdshot, buckshot, and slugs against a series of homemade barriers--drywall, aluminum siding, tires, stacks of wet cardboard. The interesting thing was, the .410 generally outpenetrated the 12 gauge in all combinations except for slugs. Those results got me to thinking about an oft quoted maxim about how stopping ability is about shot placement, penetration, and caliber.

When it comes to terminal ballistics, critics of birdshot and the "it's a solid mass of lead at HD distances" theory argue that it's still the individual pellet size that matters. There's also the ubiquitous references to The Box 'o Truth results regarding birdshot. So, a large but shallow wound from birdshot is less likely to immediately incapacitate someone due to insufficient penetration. If that is the case, then wouldn't .410, which is available with 00 or even 000 loads, be competitive with 20 gauge, where #3 is basically the biggest shot size available? Assuming good shot placement at close range, wouldn't 5 00 buckshot pellets, travelling at basically the same velocity as fired out of a 12 gauge, have better penetration and therefore a better potential to stop a fight than a load of #3 buck from the 20 gauge, say from a CNS hit? I mean, if terminal ballistics is ultimately about individual pellet characteristics, then 00 beats #3 buck, right?

Anyway, my point is not to say that .410 is better than a 20 gauge, but to revisit the commonly held belief that .410 is that weak a platform for HD. Is .410 really so inappropriate for HD? If so, then what exactly makes it so inappropriate?

I think about my parents, who are getting quite old and frail, as well as a bigger and bigger proportion of our population in general. If a lighter kicking long gun like a .410 is a viable HD option compared to a hard kicking pistol, then it would benefit everyone if we started changing the universal "Using a .410 is like spitting at the BG" stereotype.

Thanks for reading this far.

[savasyn]

I can't speak to the power delivery issues that you ask about, but I'd say the biggest reason .410 isn't the best choice for HD is that ammo is hard to find and is expensive when you do. That translates to very little practice. I personally disagree with anyone who says there is no need to practice with a shotgun, especially if it is to be used for home defense.

12 and 20 gauge guns are easy to find at good prices as well as generally being set up better for HD(pump and semi-auto options.) Additionally, the ammo is cheap and abundant so people are more likely to practice.

[Patriot]

I ask this question out of a genuine curiosity to hear other people's thoughts on the topic, not to be a troll--why is .410 considered weak for HD?

Whenever the question of HD weapons come up, a shottie is often the most commonly suggested weapon. Then, when it comes to gauge, 12 or 20 have lot's of support. However, .410 is almost universally dismissed for HD as being too "anemic." My question is, in what way is .410 anemic and too weak for HD? The overall shot mass? The velocity? The pellet size?

I ask because when I was visiting my folks for Xmas vacation, they asked me to dig through their storage room for something, and I ran across an old gun magazine that had an article comparing 12 and .410 loads for HD (12 vs .410 because those are the two extremes of commonly available shotguns). I think the magazine was from the late 80's. I only had time to quickly skim the article, but the writers did the birdshot, buckshot, and slugs against a series of homemade barriers--drywall, aluminum siding, tires, stacks of wet cardboard. The interesting thing was, the .410 generally outpenetrated the 12 gauge in all combinations except for slugs. Those results got me to thinking about an oft quoted maxim about how stopping ability is about shot placement, penetration, and caliber.

When it comes to terminal ballistics, critics of birdshot and the "it's a solid mass of lead at HD distances" theory argue that it's still the individual pellet size that matters. There's also the ubiquitous references to The Box 'o Truth results regarding birdshot. So, a large but shallow wound from birdshot is less likely to immediately incapacitate someone due to insufficient penetration. If that is the case, then wouldn't .410, which is available with 00 or even 000 loads, be competitive with 20 gauge, where #3 is basically the biggest shot size available? Assuming good shot placement at close range, wouldn't 5 00 buckshot pellets, travelling at basically the same velocity as fired out of a 12 gauge, have better penetration and therefore a better potential to stop a fight than a load of #3 buck from the 20 gauge, say from a CNS hit? I mean, if terminal ballistics is ultimately about individual pellet characteristics, then 00 beats #3 buck, right?

Anyway, my point is not to say that .410 is better than a 20 gauge, but to revisit the commonly held belief that .410 is that weak a platform for HD. Is .410 really so inappropriate for HD? If so, then what exactly makes it so inappropriate?

I think about my parents, who are getting quite old and frail, as well as a bigger and bigger proportion of our population in general. If a lighter kicking long gun like a .410 is a viable HD option compared to a hard kicking pistol, then it would benefit everyone if we started changing the universal "Using a .410 is like spitting at the BG" stereotype.

Thanks for reading this far.

I think the number one reason it is less than optimal (which does not mean non-viable) is because 12ga and 20ga are more powerful, more prevalent, and less expensive (usually). Don't forget the 28ga

.410 is compatible with 45LC, right? I think I'd pick a rifle cartridge over .410 for HD. I've got more faith (misplaced or no) in the penetration and energy of a typical rifle round (or a lot of 44spl/357mag/44mag PCC loads). My gut feeling would be to go with .223 over .410.

My half-a**ed guess re penetration vs 12ga is that the 410 has a smaller surface (since shot flies in a near solid mass for some distance) and therefore penetrates easier.

I don't speculate about shot performance due to being woefully underinformed in terms of practical, empirical, firsthand experience. I'll go with larger shot all things considered.

[Two Shots]

I believe its bigger is better mentality that precludes smaller caliber and gauges, lack of short barreled guns and the limited choice of defence rounds in .410. My dad is too old for a 12 and keeps a .410 for HD #4shot and slugs. I have used the .410 with slugs and buck just to see what they can do and I wouldn't feel naked using a .410 for HD, I would rather use a 12 inside the house but the .410 won't over penetrate like a 12. Try shooting #4 shot at 7yds at a piece of sheetrock and check the damage if you want more knockdown use 00 or 000 Buck. Granted you may need to order these but they do hit hard.

.410 Gauge Super-X Buckshot, 3" Shell, #000 Buck, 5 Pellets, 1135 fps. $5.74 or 00 buck 25rds for $18.97 at Cheaper than Dirt
.410 Brenneke Magnum Silver Slug, 3" Shell, 1/4 oz., 1755 fps, 5 Rounds $5.25

[ByTheNumbers]

My half-a**ed guess re penetration vs 12ga is that the 410 has a smaller surface (since shot flies in a near solid mass for some distance) and therefore penetrates easier.

The magazine article writer's theory is that the .410 outpenetrated the 12 gauge because a .410 load is long and narrow, while the 12 gauge load would spread out into a bigger pattern because of the way the pellets are packaged. E.g. with the 00 or 000 buck loads in .410, the pellets are basically just stacked in a straight line because of the narrow shell, instead of packed in a more staggered pattern in the larger 12 gauge shell.

[Patriot]

The magazine article writer's theory is that the .410 outpenetrated the 12 gauge because a .410 load is long and narrow, while the 12 gauge load would spread out into a bigger pattern because of the way the pellets are packaged. E.g. with the 00 or 000 buck loads in .410, the pellets are basically just stacked in a straight line because of the narrow shell, instead of packed in a more staggered pattern in the larger 12 gauge shell.

So he's got same basic idea, just expressed more articulately and in a slightly different way

[RAD-CDPII]

Here is a review of the Taurus Judge, which shoots 410. End result, not good for SD/HD.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

[Patriot]

Here is a review of the Taurus Judge, which shoots 410. End result, not good for SD/HD.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

That is a pistol while OP is talking about a longarm.

[Bucc]

While not my first choice I also would not feel naked with a .410 and buck or especially slugs.
At close range like in a typical home buck makes a nasty persuader.
However no shotgun should be used for home defense without buckshot unless there is nothing else.
My uncle was an ER Doctor for 26 years in Fresno, San Diego and Houston.
He said of all the birdshot wounds he ever saw he can only remember two or three being lethal and only one was truly immediately incapacitating.
He said the most notable lethal one the guy died of a massive infection some later.
Buckshot he said usually caused massive, mostly lethal trauma and generally immediately incapacitated the guy being shot.
The buck or slugs are the only way to go IMNSHO.

[thedonger]

While not my first choice I also would not feel naked with a .410 and buck or especially slugs.
At close range like in a typical home buck makes a nasty persuader.
However no shotgun should be used for home defense with buckshot unless there is nothing else.
My uncle was an ER Doctor for 26 years in Fresno, San Diego and Houston.
He said of all the birdshot wounds he ever saw he can only remember two or three being lethal and only one was truly immediately incapacitating.
He said the most notable lethal one the guy died of a massive infection some later.
Buckshot he said usually caused massive, mostly lethal trauma and generally immediately incapacitated the guy being shot.
The buck or slugs are the only way to go IMNSHO.

I'm confused.

You say not to use a shotgun with Buck Shot and then:

The buck or slugs are the only way to go IMNSHO.

[ByTheNumbers]

Given the rest of the post, I'm pretty sure that's a typo, and that he meant to type "However no shotgun should be used for home defense with birdshot unless there is nothing else." Then it all makes sense.

[Patriot]

I'm confused.

You say not to use a shotgun with Buck Shot and then:

He most likely meant "don't use birdshot" there.

[Bucc]

Yup, It was a typo.
To clarify, I would NOT use birdshot in a shotgun for anything but birds.
For HD I would definitely use buckshot and slugs.
In fact I have three 00 buck and two slugs in mine when I load it for HD.

[sloguy]

the 410 slug is a soft lead, which tears apart on impact with wet materials. it causes wounds roughly 5 inches deep and 5 inches wide. looks like a small pumpkin shaped wound.

410 buck shot wounds just as well as 12 gauge but theres less pellets and by comparison less wounding. 00 or 000 buck shot is the far better choice in 410.

[sloguy]

I think the number one reason it is less than optimal (which does not mean non-viable) is because 12ga and 20ga are more powerful, more prevalent, and less expensive (usually). Don't forget the 28ga

.410 is compatible with 45LC, right? I think I'd pick a rifle cartridge over .410 for HD. I've got more faith (misplaced or no) in the penetration and energy of a typical rifle round (or a lot of 44spl/357mag/44mag PCC loads). My gut feeling would be to go with .223 over .410.

My half-a**ed guess re penetration vs 12ga is that the 410 has a smaller surface (since shot flies in a near solid mass for some distance) and therefore penetrates easier.

I don't speculate about shot performance due to being woefully underinformed in terms of practical, empirical, firsthand experience. I'll go with larger shot all things considered.

410 slugs are hollow and made from extremely soft lead. they tear apart. they are also approx 92 grain. they are out performed by many pistol rounds. 45colt is a better round by far.