Shotgun Laws and recommendations

[Ironchef]

A few questions from a shotgun shopper:

1) What procedures are there to buy a shotgun from a store (in CA)? And from a FFT/PPT seller (in CA bay area)?

2) C&R Shotgun purchases online? Shipped right to my house like a Garand from CMP?

3) What features, specs, sizes, etc make shotguns legal/illegal?

Searching wasn't very fruitful for these questions though I've seen some opinions on some of these questions in indirect responses..but not clear enough for me.

I would like to have a simple shotgun (2 barrel or inline pump). Stock doesn't matter, butt doesn't matter, grip doesn't matter. Possibility of mounting a light would be nice.

I know very, very little about shotguns so forgive my noobishness.

[hoffmang]

A few questions from a shotgun shopper:

1) What procedures are there to buy a shotgun from a store (in CA)? And from a FFT/PPT seller (in CA bay area)?

Walk into the store and bring your CA ID and your money. Fill out the DROS and 4473, wait 10 days, and bring your shotgun home. The PPT is about the same except you pay the other private party and then pay the DROS fee to the FFL. In either case you'll either need proof of safe ownership or a receipt for a recent lock purchase.

2) C&R Shotgun purchases online? Shipped right to my house like a Garand from CMP?

If you're an 03 FFL and the shotgun is over 50 years old, it can be sent directly to your licensed location.

3) What features, specs, sizes, etc make shotguns legal/illegal?

Your shotgun must have a barrel of more than 18" and an OAL of 26". If the shotgun is semiautomatic it must not have both a pistol grip and a collapsible stock at the same time. Your semiauto shotgun can not have a rotating magazine or a detachable magazine.

Searching wasn't very fruitful for these questions though I've seen some opinions on some of these questions in indirect responses..but not clear enough for me.

I would like to have a simple shotgun (2 barrel or inline pump). Stock doesn't matter, butt doesn't matter, grip doesn't matter. Possibility of mounting a light would be nice.

I know very, very little about shotguns so forgive my noobishness.

Everything else not pointed out above is wide open. A pump shotgun that isn't too short can have most any otherwise legal items on it (read no grenade launcher.)

-Gene

[bwiese]

A few questions from a shotgun shopper:

1) What procedures are there to buy a shotgun from a store (in CA)? And from a FFT/PPT seller (in CA bay area)?

A shotgun is purchased like any other regular firearm in CA.

1) Go to dealer, say "I want this one",
2) Fill out 4473,
3) wait 10 days,
4) pick up.

(Oh, I forgot one step - pay money!)

PPT? Find someone with a shotty to sell, go to FFL dealer with him, and you both fill out the PPT/4473 stuff. Pay him, pay dealer for PPT service fees. Wait 10 days and pick up your shotgun.

I'll let other folks speak to C&R matters.

3) What features, specs, sizes, etc make shotguns legal/illegal?

Shotgun should have min barrel length of 18" or greater. The firearm should also be min. 26" in overall length.

[A stockless firearm like a Mossberg 500 "Cruiser" w/just a pistol grip is not a shotgun since it's not intended to be fired from the shoulder. As such, it is not GCA '68-exempt (unlike regular rifles & shotguns) from being sold by FFL dealer to those btwn 18 and 21, and must be sold to 21 & older by an FFL. This does not prevent someone from removing the stock from a Mossy 500 or 870 after purchase, however.]

In CA, shotguns CANNOT have revolving cylinder magazines (semiauto or manual/pump).

In CA, semiauto shotguns cannot have detachable magazines.

In CA, semiauto shotguns cannot simultaneously have BOTH a folding/ telescoping stock AND a pistol grip. (Either item separately is OK.)

[bwiese]

(Wow, Hoffman beat me typing!

[hoffmang]

I just love how we said almost exactly the same thing...

-Gene

[Ironchef]

Ok, I had thought a PPT of a shotgun didn't require the 10 day wait. And I thought I could buy a C&R rifle or shotgun and it could be mailed directly to me...without the 03 ffl license.

And 26" OAL...collapsable stock that makes it less would be illegal, or does it just need to originate with 26" at purchase or manufacture?

Thanks guys, this is what I was looking for. All hail CALGUNS!

[GuyW]

[A stockless firearm like a Mossberg 500 "Cruiser" w/just a pistol grip is not a shotgun since it's not intended to be fired from the shoulder....

And if we lived in a free state, IIRC it (a provably pistol-grip-only-"shotgun"-as-manufactured) could be papered as an AOW-with-less-than-18" barrel for $5!

But CA's outlaws such fun...

[bwiese]

Ok, I had thought a PPT of a shotgun didn't require the 10 day wait.

All regular non-C&R, non-blackpowder firearms require DROS/10day wait except in cases of direct-lineage interfamily transfer.

And I thought I could buy a C&R rifle or shotgun and it could be mailed directly to me...without the 03 ffl license.

I think you need the C&R FFL to do that if crossing state lines. You probably can do it face to face btwn same-state residents without paperwork, however.

And 26" OAL... collapsable stock that makes it less would be illegal, or does it just need to originate with 26" at purchase or manufacture?

For CA, 26" OAL is with a stock folded/collapsed.

But from a practical standpoint this is fairly irrelevant: typical production firearms shooting shotgun shells (Rem 870, Mossy 500, etc.) are at least ~27"-28" OAL, even when equipped with just a pistol grip and no buttstock whatsoever. (This may only come into/near an issue with modified 'coach guns' without buttstocks and having typically shorter-than-870 receivers.)

[bwiese]

And if we lived in a free state, IIRC it (a provably pistol- grip-only-"shotgun"-as-manufactured) could be papered as an AOW with less-than-18" barrel for $5!

But CA outlaws such fun..

No it doesn't and you'll eventually hear more when ducks are in a row.

[hoffmang]

You can buy a shotgun over 50 years old face to face with no paperwork from a willing California resident seller.

-Gene

[Ironchef]

You can buy a shotgun over 50 years old face to face with no paperwork from a willing California resident seller.

-Gene

Ok, this sounds familiar.

Thanks guys!

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I'm kind of confused by the shotgun laws. Particularly how they relate to the Saiga 12. First, if equipped with a mag lock a Saiga 12 would be legal to have a pistol grip and solid stock, correct? Now I read in another thread, the one that led to the group buy, that the 10 round max did not expressly apply to shotguns, is this correct? Basically I am asking if a Saiga 12 with a bullet button could legally be built to have a true AK silhouette without resorting to some sort of 10/30 mag.

Also, I read that it was entirely possible that the Saiga 12 could be classified a destructive device soon. I do not really know what that means, but I assume it means the won't be legal to buy anymore. If it happened would people who bought them before their re-classification still be allowed to own them?

[hoffmang]

There is a wide open question under state law. It's not clear if you can import a large-capacity magazine - whether attached to a firearm or not - based on 12020. As such, you would have to have owned or possessed the more than 10 round magazine that you pin to a Siaga 12. LEOs can have large-capacity magazines so they are good to go. Citizens need to tread lightly.

But yes - you can have a semiautomatic shotgun with most any magazine capacity as long as that magazine is not detachable. You can not have both a folding stock and a pistol grip on that semiautomatic shotgun however.

-Gene

[peepshowal]

Basically I am asking if a Saiga 12 with a bullet button could legally be built to have a true AK silhouette without resorting to some sort of 10/30 mag.

I'm not sure I understand what your asking, but if you mean will it look like an AK with a 30 round mag even though it only holds ten then the answer is yes. A ten round mag for 12ga rounds is large.

The picture below is of a 30 round (7.62) mag left, a 40 round (7.62) mag on the right and in the middle is a 7 round 12 ga mag from a Valtro PM5 pump shotgun. The three rounds below it are to approximately show how large a 10 round mag would be.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I didn't think of that, answers my question. Thanks for the help.