Why don't US produced box magazine shotguns exist?

[Barabas]

It's still something we'd like to do, for ego if nothing else. But it's hard to figure out how to make it pay.

Get into bed with EA Games and get your prototype in the next Battlefield or Modern Warfare title as a special unlock.

[Dion]

A few tacticl nutcases don't out number the many bloodthirsty hunters.

This.

[a1c]

Branding. Saiga reintroduced the concept and associated it with their name.

Nowadays a lot of US-based businesses are doing a lot of money using the Saiga name by selling their own Saiga-based versions. No other manufacturer has come close to matching the concept/brand name.

If one of them came up with a similarly successful and efficient model, I'm sure they could make it happen. It just hasn't been the case so far. Keep in mind that in addition to the antique O/U and S/S concepts, the pump concept is very much anchored with US tradition.

Semi-auto shotguns (which is where I would place the Saiga, the mag concept being ancillary to me) are a small marketshare. Only 3-gun shooters, tactical professionals and mall ninjas really are into it. Don't get me wrong: I'd love to get me a Saiga 12 platform eventually. I just don't feel much of a need for it. And therein lies the answer to your question.

[stix213]

Saiga 12 is awesome, I love mine, but there are some serious limitations to box magazines on a shotgun. For example your ammo can get warped if stored in the magazine by the spring pressure. This is something I've seen after only 1 night keeping walmart federal in a 10 round magazine. Many came out oval in shape, and wouldn't feed into the chamber.

[nrakid88]

Saiga 12 is awesome, I love mine, but there are some serious limitations to box magazines on a shotgun. For example your ammo can get warped if stored in the magazine by the spring pressure. This is something I've seen after only 1 night keeping walmart federal in a 10 round magazine. Many came out oval in shape, and wouldn't feed into the chamber.

I actually am getting issues with my winchester super x buckshot stored in my 870... although they have been in there for about six months

[nrakid88]

Flipping the switch on a new shotgun project would cost tens of thousands of dollars, plus the tooling (which would go to around half a million dollars for injection molds, which I think is the only economical way to make one in the US), plus the long development and testing time. That's a lot of money to put at risk. And while we think there are definite law enforcement applications for such a shotgun, they are specialized; no agency is going to replace the Remington 870s in their cruisers with semi-automatic detachable magazine shotguns. Maybe the SWAT guys would buy some. Maybe.

It's still something we'd like to do, for ego if nothing else. But it's hard to figure out how to make it pay.

Our projects along these lines are called Anderson and Antimony, plus Beauty and Bernard (bullpup versions), and Bertha and Bighorn (masterkey versions). They will probably remain project names . . .

I had NO IDEA it costs so damn much to launch a new firearm.

Honestly that makes me quite sad as I have my eye on designing firearms in the future.

And my political science degree won't cut it to work for a company.

Maybe I should start working on an engineering degree.


A bullpup Semi auto shotgun would surely rock my socks.

[Hott <3 Mess]

Hey stix I see your from P-town. Me and my BF live in SR, I just picked up an S12. Where do you usually go shoot yours?

[nrakid88]

I don't own one of these Sagias, don't know anyone that does or anyone that would want to. I am curious on what facts you say it is so Popular. What are the sales of this weapon compared to other shotguns?

I guess I am just thinking they are popular based on there popularity on these interweb forums. However, i see your point, Saiga's don't have near the market share of 300 dollar pump shotguns.

So, I guess it really is that the cheapest gun that works wins.


By the way, thanks for selling me an 18inch threaded barrel for my 870. I believe I got it from you on gunbroker.

[Josh3239]

I'd imagine most of it is cost. A lot of money to design and produce, and on price alone they cannot compete with shotguns that aren't semi automatic, magazine fed. You'd pretty much have to use your own proprietary magazine as well. Tube fed shotguns and pump action tend to be extremely reliable, not to mention more accepted by shotgun shooters, whereas magazines are can be particularly finicky and are fairly fragile and not to mention are particularly "evil".

[RustyMacHine]

What about Valtro?

http://www.valtrousa.com/contactus.html

I'm not sure if it's US made but they're in Hayward. I've never heard of this until two weeks ago when I saw my nephew (6y/o) posing with one on fb.

[Mesa Tactical]

I had NO IDEA it costs so damn much to launch a new firearm.

That's what it would cost us. But we are small and nimble. It would cost Remington or Ruger far more (though Remington and Ruger could be assured of far greater immediate sales than we could).

We just introduced a new tactical shotgun stock. As it was our first injection molded product, we hired some specialized engineers to help with the design. They cost about $20,000.

Then the tooling cost over $170,000. That was not the lowest bid, but the highest bid was $350,000 for the same tooling.

Of course, minimum order for each of the components is 250 units, of everything. You put all that on the shelf and hope people buy them.

Making a shotgun out of metal - with new jigs and tooling and everything - would be prohibitively expensive unless you could bank on serious volume, like tens of thousands of units, or even hundreds of thousands, the first year. A plastic shotgun would cost less on a unit basis, but given that the tooling for a stock costs nearly $200,000, you can imagine what the tooling for an upper and lower receiver would cost (we intended to use slightly modified Saiga magazines we could buy from SureFire or AGP, so we didn't have to tool up for that). I believe Eric Kincel of Vltor once told me his first line of AR-15 stocks cost half a million dollars to produce.

None of that includes the development: paying for the engineering and making expensive prototypes for testing and re-testing. That would be tens of thousands of dollars before you even have a working model.

Of course, all these tooling costs would be about a quarter or even less if you did it in China. This is why most of our commercial plastics industry has moved to Asia. But then you are dealing with an imported firearm again.

The main reason the Saiga 12 is as cheap as it is is because it is made in Russia.

What about Valtro?

http://www.valtrousa.com/contactus.html

I'm not sure if it's US made but they're in Hayward. I've never heard of this until two weeks ago when I saw my nephew (6y/o) posing with one on fb.

Valtro is an Italian company and they only export pump-action shotguns. They are popular in Canada, but for whatever reason the US importer hasn't made much of an impact with them here. For one thing, they are pretty expensive for a pump.

[Quiet]

There have been box fed, AR style 12ga shotguns manufactured here, but either they were ahead of their time (USAS 12 comes to mind). The modern LE/military only AA12 is a domestic endeavor, maybe they would produce a civilian consumable model.

Select-fire magazine fed 12gauge shotguns have been around since the 1970s.
Atchisson Assault-12 (1st gen, 1970s-80s)
Daewoo USAS-12 (2nd gen, 1980s-present)
MPS Inc AA-12 (3rd gen, 2005-present)
Problem is they are classified as MGs.

Gilbert Equipment Company did import in semi-auto only versions of the Daewoo USAS-12 for US civilian sales, but the BATFE declared them to be Destructive Devices (DD).

MPS Inc has stated that they will never make a semi-auto only version of the AA-12 for civilian sales and that they are only interested in acquiring Gov/Mil/LE agency sales.

RAMO Defense (mid/late-1990s) and Ameetec Arms (mid-2000s) made semi-auto versions of the USAS-12 in the USA. These were not classified as DDs by the BATFE and were built from Daewoo USAS-12 parts kits & US made recievers/barrels. Both, RAMO Defense and Ameetec Arms discontinued them due to very poor sales.

Berretta makes one.. or made one. I don't know the model number but I shot it last weekend. Switches between Semi-auto and pump action too.

Beretta M-3P.
When Beretta introduced it in the late-90s, they made Franchi discontinue the SPAS-15. Same reasoning why Beretta made Franchi discontinue the SPAS-12, when Benelli introduced the M-3 Super 90.

[WDE91]

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/212camo

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/220F

Ya I know its not really a "shotgun" but it is 12ga and 20ga