Shotguns with a pistol grip

[TangoCharlie]

huh, where were they determined to be handguns, and therefore AOWs? you can buy a brand-new Mossberg cruiser PG-only firearm without dealing with the NFA at all. It isn't a handgun and isn't an AOW.




still not sure what you are talking about here.

there is no new status other than ATF stating that they aren't shotguns, but are merely Title 1 firearms.


that could be done if they want, and if a company like Serbu wanted AOW host guns, they could just buy a production run that never went through the "temporarily install a shoulder stock" process.

But until ATF says that a PG-only firearm that shoots a shotgun-shell and is more than 26" OAL is anything but a Title 1 firearm, there is no need for Mossberg to do that "install a shoulder stock for a minute" deal.

They've clarified only that it is to be considered "other than a rifle or shotgun" for purposes of FFL transfers. These are still for sale, sure, until ATF completes their sentence. While we have no idea what ATF will do, they don't have much wiggle room left in Title I law.

A firearm meets a certain definition and is therefore regulated under Title I or Title II, not the other way around. By stripping a PG-only firearm that fires a shot shell of "shotgun" definition, it leaves no room in Title I for it to exist. That's the peril alluded to in the GOA release.

If it is not designed to fire from the shoulder as is a "Rifle" or "Shotgun" and it is not a "handgun," as you say, then by default there's nothing left. A firearm designed to fire with two hands and no shoulder? That's an NFA firearm. A pistol with a smooth-bore that fires a fixed shot shell? That's NFA teritory as well. Barrel length matters not here since this ruling precludes it being a "Short Barreled Shotgun". "AOW" has no reference for barrel length, so the 18" barrel is not a Title I anchor by any means.

By my reference to "Destructive Device", they cannot use the "non-sporting shotgun" definition of DD since it's not a "shotgun" by their own ruling. While it does have a bore greater than .50", it is far closer to and more likely fall under the "smooth-bore pistol" AOW definition.

Anyway, this is all speculative and while it remains to be seen what ATF will do here, we cannot just assume it's going to remain a Title I firearm. It has to meet some definition within Title I, which right now does not exist.

[ke6guj]

These are still for sale, sure, until ATF completes their sentence. While we have no idea what ATF will do, they don't have much wiggle room left in Title I law.

A firearm meets a certain definition and is therefore regulated under Title I or Title II, not the other way around. By stripping a PG-only firearm that fires a shot shell of "shotgun" definition, it leaves no room in Title I for it to exist. That's the peril alluded to in the GOA release.

not sure why you think it must be a rifle, shotgun or handgun to be a Title 1 firearm. A semi-auto M1919a4 is a Title 1 firearm and it isn't any of the above.

If it is not designed to fire from the shoulder as is a "Rifle" or "Shotgun" and it is not a "handgun," as you say, then by default there's nothing left. A firearm designed to fire with two hands and no shoulder? That's an NFA firearm. A pistol with a smooth-bore that fires a fixed shot shell? That's NFA teritory as well. Barrel length matters not here since this ruling precludes it being a "Short Barreled Shotgun". "AOW" has no reference for barrel length, so the 18" barrel is not a Title I anchor by any means.

only if it is concealable, would it be an AOW. ATF has determined 26" OAL to be the magic number to be automatically considered to be "concealable". If it is over 26", it is presumed to be not concealable".

Any other weapon. Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Heck, ATF has even stated that a 1919a4 with a <16" barrel wasn't a Title 2 firearm unless it went under 26" OAL. Same for a Mossberg Cruiser with a <16" barrel, not an NFA item unless it was under 26" OAL.

By my reference to "Destructive Device", they cannot use the "non-sporting shotgun" definition of DD since it's not a "shotgun" by their own ruling. While it does have a bore greater than .50", it is far closer to and more likely fall under the "smooth-bore pistol" AOW definition.

There does seem to be some wiggle room for ATF to avoid a DD determination for PG-only "shotguns" due to the wording of the DD definition which may allow for a firearm that shoots a "sporting" shotgun shell to be exempt from the DD regs. But I agree that it might not be a valid exemption and that they should be called DDs, but I would not call them AOWs since they are not smooth bore handguns, and are not concealable firearms.

But the **** will hit the fan if ATF decides, in 2011, that companies like Remington and Mossberg have been illegally selling DDs for decades. Its one thing to put a DD ruling on a foreign SG like the Street Sweeper, made in evil South Africa and imported by a small importer. but when you make a ruling like that against a "mom and apple pie" company like Remington, who does have the money to fight that ruling, it may happen differently then it did 20 years ago.

Anyway, this is all speculative and while it remains to be seen what ATF will do here, we cannot just assume it's going to remain a Title I firearm. It has to meet some definition within Title I, which right now does not exist.

once again, it doesn't have to meet some sub catagory to be a Title 1 firearm. It is a Title 1 firearm if it meets the following defintion,

Firearm. Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics.

So, it is a Title 1 firearm (even if it isn't a handgun, rifle, or shotgun) unless it falls under a Title 2 classification. Again, A semi-auto 1919a4 is not one of the above but is a Title 1, not Title 2, firearm.