Shotguns with a pistol grip

[Joncamop]

I was wondering if anyone else had gotten this email from GOA? I'd also like to know if anyone knows more about this. Here's part of the email that really concerned me, I've copied and pasted:

"The agency also put millions of gun owners in its crosshairs when it reclassified shotguns that are equipped with pistol grips. By decreeing in 2009 that such firearms are not "shotguns," the ATF acted as a de facto legislative-making body... quietly turning millions of gun owners into potential criminals overnight.

If the weapons are not "shotguns," then what are they? The NFA Owners Association suggests the only logical alternative is that such firearms are now "destructive devices" -- in the same category as grenade launchers, which require owners to register their weapons and pay a $200 tax."

Does anyone know if this is true or not? If anyone would like me to forward them the entire email let me know or I could copy and paste the enitre email. This is the only part that deals with shotguns though. There is other info in the email. Thanks for your help.

Jon

[JagerTroop]

If the weapons are not "shotguns," then what are they? The NFA Owners Association suggests the only logical alternative is that such firearms are now "destructive devices" -- in the same category as grenade launchers, which require owners to register their weapons and pay a $200 tax."

If they are refering to "cruiser" type shotguns with a pistol grip only (never had a buttstock) then they would not be "shotguns". They would be Title 1 firearms. A defining characteristic of a shot is "designed to fired from the shoulder". A cruiser is not, therefor it isn't a "shotgun", even though it seems the same.

[GoingQuiet]

Basically, here's the issue at hand.....

Shotguns are coming from the factory with a pistol grip. This is both good and bad.

Good: You were going to throw away the shoulder stock and PG the gun anyways
Bad: Gun is not designed to be fired from the shoulder at this point.
Resolved: Gun not designed to be fired from the shoulder = NOT a shotgun but rather "OTHER"

"OTHER" firearms that are firearms by definition but not a handgun, rifle or shotgun include:

Pistol frames - 1911 and Glock Recievers come to mind
Rifle receivers - Insert Off List Lower here
Shotguns with factory PG - like the Mossberg JUST IN CASE 500's etc.

Now, this leads to new interpretations because 18 year olds can buy a shotgun but not "OTHER" - and theres not really anything to classify a gun that isn't designed to be shot from the shoulder if not a pistol.

The benefits to the factory PG is that I can AOW the gun and make an Any Other Weapon so it transfers on a $5 tax. 11" Mossberg anybody? However - being an AOW, you can't ever put a stock on it as you've created an SBS.

Confused yet? Good.

[Joncamop]

Now I think that I'm more confused than I was before. I have a Benelli M3 that came with a pistol grip/shoulder stock. Does that mean since it's meant to be shot from the shoulder that I don't need to worry about this law?

Jon

[Mad Scotsman]

Yup, confused.

[CmpsdNoMore]

The important thing to keep in mind here is the difference between pistol grip only and a pistol grip with a stock. Also, how the firearm started it's "life".

If it has a pistol grip only, so that you cannot fire it from your shoulder, it is considered an AOW (Any Other Weapon). It's considered an AOW because it's not a long gun (meant to be fired from the shoulder). BUT, it can only be considered an AOW if it has never had a stock on it.

If your shotgun comes with a stock WITH a pistol grip, it is considered a shotgun because shotguns are meant to be fired from the shoulder.

The advantage of having an AOW is that you can have a short barrel on it. If you take a shotgun that has a shoulder stock (such as the one with a regular stock WITH a pistol grip) and put a pistol grip only on it with a short barrel it's considered a short barrel shotgun because it started with a stock.

[whisperingdoom]

-im looking at the ca firearms link now..

I just got this yesterday ..hasnt even shipped yet

http://www.slickguns.com/product/mossberg-persuader-8-shot-12-gauge-pistol-grip-24995

now do i return this or pay extra fees?

whats going on?

[Petro6golf]

So........... What does this all mean? Is big brother gonna come over and take away my mossberg cruiser? Can I still go to the range with it?

[TangoCharlie]

Some corrections:

1) If the a pistol-grip only shotgun is assembled at the factory as such and ATF has now determined these not to be "shotguns", then they are "handguns" and by definition AOWs or "Any Other Weapons" under the "Smooth-Bore Pistol" definition of AOW, requiring registration under the National Firearms Act of 1934. This is the danger lurking in ATF's determination and the peril implied in GOA's press release.

2) And if they are not "shotguns", then they cannot and will not become "Destructive Devices" since they cannot meet the "non-sporting shotgun" definition of a "Destructive Device".

What is confusing is that ATF has not declared their new status, so they remains in legal limbo, but decidedly as unregistered NFA firearms.

The fix for this is quite easy: Manufacturers need only add a buttstock installation step in their manufacturing process. Adding, then immediately removing a buttstock during the manufacture of a Mossberg Cruiser, for example, clears this issue up entirely since the firearm was originally "designed or redesigned to fire from the shoulder". Quite simple and the likely manufacturing fix for this issue so they can continue to be sold. If you own one and want to protect yourself from an unregistered AOW charge? Add a buttstock for 5 mins, take a picture, then remove buttstock. It has now been "designed or redesigned to fire from the shoulder"

While this would eliminate a great source of AOW host guns, this ruling or process does not effect receiver-only sales, which could still be manufactured, sold and used for AOW builds.

[tjg]

Can I put this:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=19976/sku=100-001-456/Product/SHOTGUN_AR_15_STOCK_CONVERSION

on a Rem 870 express and it be legal? The Rem came like this:

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-870/model-870-express-synthetic-7-round.aspx

[TangoCharlie]

Can I put this:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=19976/sku=100-001-456/Product/SHOTGUN_AR_15_STOCK_CONVERSION

on a Rem 870 express and it be legal? The Rem came like this:

http://www.remington.com/products/fi...c-7-round.aspx

Yes, perfectly legal. There are comparatively few restrictions on pump-action shotguns.

[CmpsdNoMore]

You start to have problems when you turn your shotgun into something that would make it an NFA item. For instance, if you had a regular stock on a shotgun with an 18+ inch barrel then put on a pistol grip only grip and a barrel that would make it a short barreled shotgun.

I can't recall what else makes a shotgun an NFA item.

[ke6guj]

Some corrections:

1) If the a pistol-grip only shotgun is assembled at the factory as such and ATF has now determined these not to be "shotguns", then they are "handguns" and by definition AOWs or "Any Other Weapons" under the "Smooth-Bore Pistol" definition of AOW, requiring registration under the National Firearms Act of 1934. This is the danger lurking in ATF's determination and the peril implied in GOA's press release.

huh, where were they determined to be handguns, and therefore AOWs? you can buy a brand-new Mossberg cruiser PG-only firearm without dealing with the NFA at all. It isn't a handgun and isn't an AOW.

2) And if they are not "shotguns", then they cannot and will not become "Destructive Devices" since they cannot meet the "non-sporting shotgun" definition of a "Destructive Device".

still not sure what you are talking about here.

What is confusing is that ATF has not declared their new status, so they remains in legal limbo, but decidedly as unregistered NFA firearms.

there is no new status other than ATF stating that they aren't shotguns, but are merely Title 1 firearms.

The fix for this is quite easy: Manufacturers need only add a buttstock installation step in their manufacturing process. Adding, then immediately removing a buttstock during the manufacture of a Mossberg Cruiser, for example, clears this issue up entirely since the firearm was originally "designed or redesigned to fire from the shoulder". Quite simple and the likely manufacturing fix for this issue so they can continue to be sold. If you own one and want to protect yourself from an unregistered AOW charge? Add a buttstock for 5 mins, take a picture, then remove buttstock. It has now been "designed or redesigned to fire from the shoulder"

While this would eliminate a great source of AOW host guns, this ruling or process does not effect receiver-only sales, which could still be manufactured, sold and used for AOW builds.

that could be done if they want, and if a company like Serbu wanted AOW host guns, they could just buy a production run that never went through the "temporarily install a shoulder stock" process.

But until ATF says that a PG-only firearm that shoots a shotgun-shell and is more than 26" OAL is anything but a Title 1 firearm, there is no need for Mossberg to do that "install a shoulder stock for a minute" deal.

[whisperingdoom]

...soooo i shouldn't worry about the persuader i just got that hasn't even shipped yet?

http://www.slickguns.com/product/mos...tol-grip-24995

[ke6guj]

nope, no need to worry. If ATF decides to reclassify those PG-only "shotguns" into DDs, you should be able to register them tax-free. It may make resale harder, but you'll be legal, and it is just a $300-400 gun we are talking about.