bootleg weapons lights????

[Mesa Tactical]

Define "not a whole lot".

A quality MS tube and A4 buttstock is going to be at least double his price.

My god, $75 or $80 for a rifle stock.

I can't for the life of me understand the impulse behind buying Chinese-made junk. Saving money? WTF for? So you can feed your kids? Then maybe you don't need another rifle stock right now.

But I suspect it's really so people can buy even more cheap Chinese bling and trinkets.

We just blew over $170,000 on injection molds for our new stock. We paid so much because they were made here in Costa Mesa. Everyone we talked to offered to have them made in China for 1/4 or even 1/5 of the local price.

I guess we are just dumbasses because we refused to go that route.

Maybe these poor decisions of ours will put us out of business and put our local toolmakers out of business and so no one will have to feel guilty about buying cheap offshore bling and trinkets because that's all that will be available. I just hope everyone makes enough money selling houses and dog-walking services to each other that they can still afford even cheap Chinese bling.

[ZombieTactics]

It's one of those things that requires you to have some investment in learning about what constitutes basic quality and fitness for purpose.

I've had people (with +$100 lights) tell me that my FenixLD20 setup is "crap". That's the time I make a point to detach it and throw it hard to the (concrete or gravel) ground or against a cinder block wall and have them note that it still works 100%. The worst I've had so far is a cracked lens.

Nobody with those awesome lights seems to want to repeat my test.

Some things are overpriced, some are very good values, some stuff is junk at any price. People rarely take the time to know the difference.

[Heiko]

I totally understand the airsoft thing and replicas as long as they are not passed off or identified as the real deal when they're not. I'm not saying I'd buy them but to me, as long as the seller is accurate in the description and someone wants to save a few bucks and get an inferior product, so be it. That's the economy at work and the reason why Walmart is the monster that it is. Don't get me wrong, I love a bargain but there are some things I wouldn't cheap out on.

I went to the big AZ gunshow in August and I was shocked and highly disappointed at the oceans of knock off AR gear. The quad rails, bipods, etc, etc, were all no-name cheapo overseas manufactured junk. I would actually say that finding something by Daniel Defense, Troy, or Magpul was the rarity. It was pretty sad.

[aippi]

Tact City - If you have never seen anyone try and pass off these fakes as the real thing just go to E-Bay. they not only pass these off as real they lie about them. An E-bay seller today told a man he can sell the M600C for $189 because they are being discontinued and he bought a volume of them at a good price. WRONG - I have the 2011 dealers list that becomes effective january 31st and that is light is still there. He lied and said it was a real Surefire model. Surefire does not dicount lights by volume. We sign a Limited sales agreement and can not sell these on E-bay and if caught we are dropped as a Dealer. If we have a store front we can sell on our own web site only but we must have a store front with the lights on display. So the man calls surefire and asked if this guy is an authorized Surefire dealer and of course, he is not. You can not buy a light for the dealer price of $255 and sell dozens of them for $189.00.... They are counterfeit and fakes and the guy is a liar.

So yes Tact City many the people selling these are liars and cheats and frauds. If they state it is a clone then I guess they are not liars. But someone is. If I took a China Clone of the 870 and engraved the words "Remington 870" on it and sold it, well that would be fraud for sure. So to me selling these counterfiet lights is fraud as well no matter what the sell says about it.

[CDMJ]

This is a knock off being passed off as actual factory light on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/Surefire-M600C-B...item20b611ee2a There is no way they can sell the M600C for $265 (below dealer cost), and still make any kind of profit. If you read this sellers description they clearly state that their light is "Brand New In Stock Factory Sealed Surefire". I highly, doubt it. When you look at this sellers other auctions one thing jumps out at me. He sells other Surefire lights. Judging by the prices and the fact that one of the lights is the new G2X it is safe to say that they are actual Surefire lights. In my opinion what this guy is doing is getting a few actual hand held Surefire lights though a distributor. His prices are on par for that. He is selling those. Then he is selling knock off Surefire weapon lights like the M300C and M600C. His profit margins would be huge. ( http://shop.ebay.com/bigfishbuddy/m.html ). Because remember he is getting those knock offs for $40 bucks or so. Surefire batteries and boxes mean nothing. On the surface he looks like he might be a Surefire dealer but when you dig into it there is no way he can sell the M600C and M300C for that low. It doesn't pass the smell test. If I thought it would do any good I would buy one just to put the kabash on the whole thing. But in a matter of minutes he will have everything up and running on a new account and new name. So it wouldn't matter. The point is. If you look at this one sellers prices it tells the story. All of his hand held Surefire lights are priced about right. However when you see his prices on the $400 weapon lights they are slashed by around 45%..Ask yourself why.

[tacticalcity]

Well, I sell on eBay...all my stuff is real. I have decent prices because I have a very low markup, but I still get people complaining about the prices and trying to low ball me all the time. Maybe the fake stuff has them confused about the true prices of things.

I also get a lot of emails asking me to confirm it is real, especially with the Magpul stuff. They want to make sure it is not the PTS version for Airsoft. Nothing I sell is airsoft. Everything is exactly what it says it is. Not being defensive or anything. I know you guys were not referring to me directly or anything like that. Just saying, not everyone on ebay is selling fakes and I personally have not had anybody try and pass a fake off as the real deal to me. However, I spend a lot more time selling than buying. So who knows?

All the "fakes" I have seen on eBay all said they were fakes. One example are all the knockoff Aimpoint and EoTech Sights and SureFire flashlights. In all the ads I have seen they make no attempt to pass them off as real. They say "Aimpoint Style" or "EoTech Style" and so on.

However, if it ships from China and the company is an American company, that is a HUGE clue.

[aippi]

I am sure most on E-bay are liget but this guy is not and I doubt any of them selling Surefire Lights are due to the "Limited Sales Agreement" we all sign. Anyone consistantly selling a product below the lowest possible dealer price should make a buyer think. They don't think. They believe they are getting a $425 weapons light for $189 so they are getting what they payed for so good for them. Many guys don't care if it is counterfeit or a clone and these are the clowns that get on these blogs and post things like "The Hawk is on par with the 870 Police". He believes that so good for him.

It does not take $425 to get a decent weapons light. Not saying that at all. I buy a certain brand and I know to some extent I pay for the name and rep, but when that is a good name and a rep that stands behind the product no matter what, then I am their customer. I learned something at a young age and that is "Buy Cheap, Buy Often", "Buy Quality, Buy Once".

[TheKlawMan]

I noticed that one of those threads shows a light and states it is a Replica. This of course is honest to the buyer as they know they are not getting the real thing. Am I right in assuming that if they state it is a replica and it is made in China the real manufacturer has not recourse?

Now, if it is being passed off as the real thing like some of the ones on E-bay, with no disclaimer what so ever, then that is aslo fraud, Correct?

Even if it isn't being sold as the real thing, the real manufacture may have a case for patent infringement.

[aippi]

Your correct Klaw but it is hard to bring a charge in Federal court against China. They own most of our debt. We somehow, someway lost to them and other then Korea I can't even remember us fighting them. So now we work for them and can't even keep up with the interest on the debt.

This stuff is minor compared to software and other counterfeit stuff so the Feds don't even bother with stuff like this. Guys buy china clone guns and brag they are as good as our American made weapons so as long as there are buyers there is a market.

[Heiko]

Even if it isn't being sold as the real thing, the real manufacture may have a case for patent infringement.

The manufacturers can fight that out. I'm only concerned that us consumers could be duped into thinking something is a legit product when it's not. I only buy from places that are reputable like Brownell's or Midway, or from trusted Calgunners.

If I decide I want a cheapo "EOTech style" optic on a Colt AR-22 and I know that it's a fake, that's fine. It's when I pay hundreds for what is represented as an EOTech 552 when it's the cheapo fake, that's where I have a problem.

[CDMJ]

Well, I sell on eBay...all my stuff is real.

Joe, I wasn't referring to you at all. However the seller I linked I do believe is selling knock off M300C and M600C lights and is passing them off as the real thing. I do see a lot of Ebay sellers who do follow the rules and add that key phrase "Surefire style" light and if these knock off lights didn't say Surefire on them I am sure you would see a lot of people following the rules. However, since these lights are designed to be counterfeits in every detail there are a lot of people on ebay taking advantage of that. The seller I linked is one of the ones that I believe is engaging in this type of activity.

http://www.apextac.com/surefire_m900a_helmet_flashlight_light_replica.html

The problem is that website sells tons of stuff that is counterfeits of popular rails, lights, sights, mounts, ect. We as consumers need to take a stand. As someone who works in the industry. I fully understand the time, money, effort, resources and innovation that goes into developing a new product or improving an existing product. Be it rails, sights, followers, side saddles, whatever. When a factory in China takes that product, that innovation and they replicate it, when they counterfeit it and mass produce it using lower quality materials and manufacturing processes not only does it hurt original manufacture but it hurts the consumer. This encroachment of this industry will start to choke off innovation and before long companies that were in business with end up closing their doors. Because as it is the start up cost alone to produce some products that are common place on just our shotguns is already incredibly high (try pricing out the molds for stocks, or get quotes for a run of aluminum side saddles or how about 1,000 little delrin spacers). Some companies simply can not afford to produce a product, take it to market only to have it imported as a counterfeit around a year later while they are still trying to get a return on their investment. So it is not just Surefire catching it here. It is Larue, DD, KAC..the list goes and goes. Magpul did the smart thing with the PTS product line. They realized quickly that if they made a lower quality version of their stocks nobody would bother making another lower, lower, quality version. This strategy paid off in the end. But most companies don't have the bankroll to pull a move like that.

[sfoan]

I don't own a surefire product, so is it made in the USA?

[TheKlawMan]

Your correct Klaw but it is hard to bring a charge in Federal court against China. They own most of our debt. We somehow, someway lost to them and other then Korea I can't even remember us fighting them. So now we work for them and can't even keep up with the interest on the debt.

This stuff is minor compared to software and other counterfeit stuff so the Feds don't even bother with stuff like this. Guys buy china clone guns and brag they are as good as our American made weapons so as long as there are buyers there is a market.

Feds don't prosecute patent infringement, which is done by the company by filing a civil suit, which may or may not be in Federal court. The problem is that they just disappear and resurface under a new name and if you get a judgmenet trying to collect may be impossible. I don't do intellectual property work, but look into whether or not Ebay has any liability. You may wish to simply have an attorney send Ebay a cease and desist letter advising them that its counterfeit product. That would have to come from Surefire. Could it be genuine product obtained from a bankrupt distributor for pennies on the dollar?

BTW, you may recall me recently standing up for the Chinese clones such as the Hawk 982. Ii think they have a place, but I put my own money down on a Remington Express hours ago.

[aippi]

Well, years back when working concerts we were advised of Feds working during the concerts to look for people recording the show and advised to assist them if they requested help. I guess that was cause they made copies of it and sold them so I thought the Feds went after this counterfeit stuff. Not that anyone does but seems like it was part of their duties as they also impound conterfeit tapes and CD's. Someone in the Feds is susposed to be doing this stuff. It is not a state function. So who is it?

I have no intention of wasting my time with any action. I am not the fool who thinks he is getting an item for 30% below dealer cost. There are suckers born every day and this thread was to get some facts on the issue many months back so I could warn clients. It was brought back by a guy who knows the deal on this mess and posted to warn people. I am a Surefire Dealer and I follow the rules. If I lose a sale to one of these counterfeits it matters not to me as the guy will needing a light real soon anyway when that mess he bought is FUBAR. Problem is he will be on a web site like this bashing the new Surefire light he bought that messed up on him as he still thinks the dang thing is the real deal. You have to wonder about these accessories product complaints posted on these sites by guys and ask yourself how much of this mess is counterfeit products.

[pyromensch]

With this thread one of the most active and popular on Calguns, I suspect your warnings are falling largely on deaf ears.

Americans will slice their own throats for a "bargain."

exactly! we as americans, want higher wages, and lower priced items, so that we can fulfill our desire to have more, of what we don't need. in turn, we are putting ourselves out or work, wholesale, and the country suffers.