SHTF

[ruchik]

Na you hit a dude with a powerful slug and they will go down 90% of the time. Hell .45 ACP 230gn FMJ has something like a 90+% one shot stop rate.
By the same token Ive seen haj take multiple hits from 240b's and keep going. Never have I ever seen a man go down with one shot from a 5.56.
I'm an advocate of biggest damn round you can get. People talk about shot placement but the fact of the matter is that the stress that combat/zombie apocalypses induce destroy fine motor skills. Train for sure, but normally when someone is shooting back at you people aim for center mass and pull the trigger. Thats why we train our soldiers that way. training will get you to hit the target, not on where you hit the target. That being said if I hit a target in the arm I want my round to be so damn big it takes his arm off!

Good point, you are correct about the biggest bullet and center mass idea. What I meant was guaranteed one-shot stops. People can continue to function for up to 14 seconds after their heart stops pumping blood. Clearly, the solution is to carry Chuck Norris in your pocket everywhere you go

[Legasat]

Shotguns are cheap! Don't sell your AR, just save for a bit a buy a shotgun.

To me, for SHTF, shotguns are the ultimate defense (unless you want to start picking off Zombies at 200 yards).

[San FranPsycho]

Keep the AR and get the 870 (or 500), SHTF pumps are extremely reliable, easy to clean quickly, ammo is extremely plentiful. Even if SHTF with aliens or the government you don't think you're really going to go toe to toe with a bunch of people/aliens at 200+ yards? If you do that you're looking for trouble most gun fights will probably happen within a few yards, just as they do today

Or you could solve your problem by doing this:

[DaveFJ80]

If a true SHTF situation did happen, you can shoot a shotgun with slugs and GRS at 100 yard targets with little problem.... with some practice. So a headshot at 20+ yards at a zombie coming at your (slow or fast) shouldn't be any different than shooting a .223 round from your AR at their head.

The other good thing about a shotgun is the entry wound size of a 12g slug is larger than a .223 round, so more damage will be done. Likewise, you can use buckshot for more impact (think 9 pellets that are close to the size of 9mm FMJ bullets), and still shot for a considerable distance. Unless you have a Saiga 12 with a drum holding a lot of rounds, your AR (if using 30-rd mags) will hold more ammo over your standard 5-8 shell capacity shotgun. That being said, I'd rather have 1 good slug from a shotgun fired at a person/zombie than a few rounds shot from an AR.

If you already have the AR, I would keep it. Get the shotgun in addition to your rifle, so you have options to choose from if the time ever comes that you need to use them for a real SHTF situation.

[gotshotgun?]

Get a beowolf upper... Problem expensively solved.

[DougJ]

Zombie attack survival quiz.

[ZenMasta]

Zombie attack survival quiz.

I did perfect according to the quiz... guess I live to fight another day.

[C.W.M.V.]

I did perfect according to the quiz... guess I live to fight another day.

You and me both!

[Black Majik]

so I've always thought that an AR or AK would suffice for SHTF. but I've noticed that they use shotguns in zombie movies. I rarely shoot my AR and other than looking cool it's pretty useless to me. and I'm worried about knockdown power. thinking of selling the AR and getting an 870, but if we ever have to battle with the government or aliens from far distances, shotguns wouldn't be useful. thoughts?

Yup. Perfectly good reason to sell your AR for an 870.

[Josh3239]

Na you hit a dude with a powerful slug and they will go down 90% of the time.

But that doesn't really have anything to do with "knockdown power". That is the person, or rather their bodies response to being shot. By the way, may I ask where you got the 90% of the time? Is that a study or did you pull that number out of nowhere?

Hell .45 ACP 230gn FMJ has something like a 90+% one shot stop rate.

Again where does the 90% come from? And certainly there are variables such as what is in front of the bullet before it hit its target, distance, shot placement, and if it even hit the target. I don't care what your shooting if you hit someone in the finger or miss completely it ain't a one shot stop.

By the same token Ive seen haj take multiple hits from 240b's and keep going.

Hate... check. Drugs... check. Natural adrenaline... check. Fanatical belief that killing the inifidel and giving your life to Allah and going to paradise with 72 virgins is the best thing that can happen in your pitifull life... check. Put all those together and you can certainly have some tough to put kill people.

Never have I ever seen a man go down with one shot from a 5.56.

You are/were a deployed soldier yes? This is a completely honest civilian question, but in a firefight can you really see who you hit and how many times? Do you really get that good a visual of the enemy?

But certainly a 5.56mm is more than capable of stopping a person with a single shot. If not the battles in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan would have been much more different. Any damage done to the brain, heart, or the spine no matter the round will put people down.

[thayne]

Would you survive a zombie attack?

My Results:


You Did perfect!

You made every move correctly.

[Rob454]

Depending on where you hit the enemy they will either die instantly, be combat ineffective
OR keep on charging. IMO when you are being shot at you dont have the time to sit there and do a perfect shot. I would aim for the biggest part of the body mass that is presented or of he is under cover whatever may be exposed.
nice thing about shotguns you can keep loading the mag tube as you are firing rounds so youll never be without ammo in the chamber. youll always have a live round in the chamber if you wish to.
other than that SHZTF zombie style I would like to be the slower zombies.
The only thing I can think of doing is stick to one type of long gun. this way you are not carrying a million different types of ammo. Good rifle and a pistol and if you must have a shotgun I would make that for up close action and the pistol for last chance otherwise IMO engage the enemy from the furthest point that your rifle is effective. So if you have a rifle thats good for 500 yards engage at that point and swap as needed as the enemy gets closer. Personally I would look into a fighting retreat this way you can hopefully keep a 500 yard distance ( if possible)
Desperation scenario if I'm with my family surrounded by zombies ill do us all. Otherwise i would try to avoid any and all firefights unless there is simply no way to get out of it.

[markman42]

By a sword and hire chuck norris and steven segal. Zombie prob solved

[C.W.M.V.]

But that doesn't really have anything to do with "knockdown power". That is the person, or rather their bodies response to being shot. By the way, may I ask where you got the 90% of the time? Is that a study or did you pull that number out of nowhere?

Because most of the people I have seen shot with a shotgun slug go down very quickly. I have never personally shot someone with a shotgun, but my soldiers have.

Again where does the 90% come from? And certainly there are variables such as what is in front of the bullet before it hit its target, distance, shot placement, and if it even hit the target. I don't care what your shooting if you hit someone in the finger or miss completely it ain't a one shot stop.

Here is the data I have seen in the past. Its from the somewhat controversial Marshall and Sanow studies. For various reasons these tests are the subject of heated debate. However counter studies have also demonstrated the effectiveness of JHP 45 ACP to be in the 97% area, where FMJ falls to 70%.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppi....asp?Caliber=0

Hate... check. Drugs... check. Natural adrenaline... check. Fanatical belief that killing the inifidel and giving your life to Allah and going to paradise with 72 virgins is the best thing that can happen in your pitifull life... check. Put all those together and you can certainly have some tough to put kill people.

Not just them. Ive seen women and kids that have taken multiple hits from 240's and 249's and not put them out of commission.

You are/were a deployed soldier yes? This is a completely honest civilian question, but in a firefight can you really see who you hit and how many times? Do you really get that good a visual of the enemy?

Hard to miss at +/- 50 meters . In all seriousness its nothing to smile about but yes, I have seen the enemy cut down in the street by me and mine. I had a saw gunner who loaded a whole 200 round belt with tracers because he liked watching the tracers tumble out of haj.

But certainly a 5.56mm is more than capable of stopping a person with a single shot. If not the battles in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan would have been much more different. Any damage done to the brain, heart, or the spine no matter the round will put people down.

If you look at the stats for rounds expended per kill in Vietnam for example the numbers are astounding. At the time (I believe it was 1972) it was estimated to be 3000+ rounds of small arms fire for each enemy casualty. In Iraq the unbelievable number of around 250,000 rounds per kill has been cited. I personally don't find it hard to believe.
Any bullet is capable of stopping an enemy with a single shot, but in combat when the fine motor skills go away you aren't going to be making head shots-you (I) aim center mass and fire until the enemy goes down.

[BigDogatPlay]

If you look at the stats for rounds expended per kill in Vietnam for example the numbers are astounding. At the time (I believe it was 1972) it was estimated to be 3000+ rounds of small arms fire for each enemy casualty. In Iraq the unbelievable number of around 250,000 rounds per kill has been cited. I personally don't find it hard to believe.
Any bullet is capable of stopping an enemy with a single shot, but in combat when the fine motor skills go away you aren't going to be making head shots-you (I) aim center mass and fire until the enemy goes down.

And those high ratios are not coming from hits versus confirmed KIA. It's all rounds fired per KIA. And those numbers have way too many variables built in. A 250K per death round count in Iraq tells me that even with all the doctrine changes since / caused by Vietnam, we aren't killing enough of the enemy.

A properly placed 5.56 round on an unprotected human target is, most often pretty devastating will end the discussion. So will a 12 gauge slug. But, each person and situation is unique and there is no such thing as a guaranteed one shot stop round, 100% of the time.