why are SG's viewed as HD guns and rarely SHTF weapons?

[juelz919]

Well . . . . I see what you're saying, however, I'm not saying that you shoot at shadows. In my scenario you should have identified your target (safety first!). It's not a "Shootanythingbreathing" scenario. But again, we have to define SHTF, and here someone included "enemy invasion".

So, if you identify your target at 100 meters, and that target is coming to take your life, AND the circumstances and background/theme/scenario is SHTF, do you shoot or do you run (take cover, call police, surrender, etc.)?

As I said (and you said), it depends on the situation. I can see how you could be disturbed if you left that part out. Can't leave that part out. As I stated in the previous post, what is SHTF? is it earthquake? Katrina? Stock market crash? Zombies? Terrorist nuke? Chinese invasion? Government agencies (police, FBI, ATF, Military, etc) coming to disarm? SHTF? I'm not sponsoring blind-shooting or hysteria. In any case, identifiy your target (as a target).

I know what you mean, but i am scared for people who have this romanticized version of a disaster as everyone else is bad guys and they wanna be rambo with their CA legal AR-15's, but in reality there will be most likely more good people wandering around looking for a safe haven.. That is what makes them so tricky..
but i turned a shotgun thread into a survivalist thread so i apologize.

[Dangerous]

oh. haha i never shot a FA uzi just the SA. how about a mac11 in 380? thats almost the same as a shotgun haha

[juelz919]

F/A uzi? i think that could arguably beat the shotgun.

I would say no, BUT i realize this is not a linear equation of one gun vs. the other, there are hundreds of outside forces acting on the situation, but i would say that in MOST scenarios a shotgun would be better..
mostly because i have an ounce of lead pretty much guaranteed to hit you all in center mass, and that is essentially without aiming, more like pointing, and in a house with birdshot down a hall or into a room it is pretty close to impossible to miss..
now the uzi also has its ups, such as fire rate, BUT that fre rate would be its downfall because with an untrained finger you have most of your lead thrown into the ceiling..
the uzi is good for spraying into crowds, an MP5 is good for going into homes..
and i will have a harder time defending my point against that

[Rob454]

. To me in a real SHTF situation we're not going to be going militant on each other, but trying to survive.

Wanna bet on that? What did longarmsshortlegs just state in his post? people are gonna waste each other, rape pillage plunder loot murder etc at least for the first few weeks or so. Or until someone bands enough people together and says enough is enough.

You own 30 acres of land, and the SHTF (of course). 30 acres down the road you see two people with guns walking toward your home. You know that SHTF and these guys are not coming to shake your hand. Do you wait until they are at your door, or until one is at the front door and one at the back door? Do you wait until they fire first, or take aim first, or disappear into the woods near your house to wait for nightfall?

So what you're saying is because you are a paranoid person you're just gonna shoot anyone who walks around with a gun? yeah that's about the stupidest thing you can do. For all you know on the other side of the hill they have a whole camp of armed people. Wouldn't it be best to figure out their intentions before simply killing two possibly innocent people. maybe I should just kill anyone who walks within 100 yards of my position? Even in a SHTF scenario you cant simply go around just killing people because YOU are scared. And that's what it is what you are. scared with a capital S.
So on the same thought what if it was a woman walking up armed/unarmed? you gonna rape then kill her? or turn her in a slave? What if it was a woman and a kid. gonna kill them too?
personally I think people will make their intentions clear pretty quickly and easily. Unless you simply cannot judge people and have no 6th sense then yeah I guess waste anyone coming near you. But dont feel too bad when someone pops you. Not everyone walking around is out to get you and your stuff dude.



Sorry back to the OP. A shotgun is fine. IF youhave a rifle use it but if a shotgun is all you got then use that. Your enemy/bad guy will either have to take you out with his long range weapons OR come in closer and closer to kill. If you can barricade yourself behind something you'll be very hard to take out. Yeah a shotgun is not for long range. 100 yards would be max effective range for slug ammo. Accurate range. ive shot slug ammo at 150 yards and while it reached the target it was off. But it did hit the human size target. just not exactly where I aimed it.
Perosnally carrying a bunch of weapons for different purposes IMO is silly as hell. You can only carry so much ammo. so either you carry a bunch of guns all with less ammo or less guns more ammo. I choose less guns more ammo.
I would choose a shotgun because you have a lot of choices in shot shells and its dependable, easy to reload and EVERYONE has a 12 ga and ammo for it. Also you wont have to have a bunch of mags. You can take down deer elk birds people etc.
A good shotgun and a good handgun and knife and you can solve about 95% of your troubles.

[eccvets]

So what you're saying is because you are a paranoid person you're just gonna shoot anyone who walks around with a gun? yeah that's about the stupidest thing you can do. For all you know on the other side of the hill they have a whole camp of armed people. Wouldn't it be best to figure out their intentions before simply killing two possibly innocent people. maybe I should just kill anyone who walks within 100 yards of my position? Even in a SHTF scenario you cant simply go around just killing people because YOU are scared. And that's what it is what you are. scared with a capital S.
So on the same thought what if it was a woman walking up armed/unarmed? you gonna rape then kill her? or turn her in a slave? What if it was a woman and a kid. gonna kill them too?
personally I think people will make their intentions clear pretty quickly and easily. Unless you simply cannot judge people and have no 6th sense then yeah I guess waste anyone coming near you. But dont feel too bad when someone pops you.

What you say is true but to the original poster, I can see his side. Why take the chance with a stranger with a gun. Although I wouldn't just just put a few slugs in to them while their down the road, once they step on to my property they are gonna get two in the *** and one in the head (or is it the other way around...)!

[technique]

Shotgun ammo = too big = too heavy = no good for bugging out.

In addition, I would rather put someone down further away if need be. I don't want them to have to be too close to me. That also goes for warning shots (rare but maybe). Rather put a few into the hood of a car at 500yrds VS. 50yrds.

[Rob454]

What you say is true but to the original poster, I can see his side. Why take the chance with a stranger with a gun. Although I wouldn't just just put a few slugs in to them while their down the road, once they step on to my property they are gonna get two in the *** and one in the head (or is it the other way around...)!

No you're right. i can see his side also but if we all go around not trusting anyone and killing each other off we might as well push the button now and end it all. Living by yourself afraid of anyone who comes near you is that really living/surviving or just a slow method of going completely wacko. I agree there are bad people out there, but i truly believe the good outweighs the bad. Ill bet most of these lone survivors will be bats*8t crazy within a year of living by themselves. Remember this isn't a time when they can just drive to town to get food. company of a warm hooker etc.
if you're that afraid/paranoid of someone coming after you and your stuff then I guess do as you please. Dont feel too paranoidd when someone comes after you cause you killed a innocent person. Eventually you will kill the wrong guy

[OHOD]

I have a .22lr, 5.56, 20ga and .357 lever action specifically bought for SHTF. When the situation rolls around, then I will pick the best to bring. I'm thinking I will probably have to bring the .22lr, 5.56, 20 ga and .357

[Noraku81]

A wise man once said, "If you're going to a gunfight, bring a shotgun. If you don't have a shotgun, stay home."

[tombinghamthegreat]

Another factor for an SHTF is the situation and environment, thus requiring people to own different type of guns to address this issue. Urban environments would favor handguns, shotguns and medium range rifles(AKs, ARs, ect). Desert would favor more medium to long range weapons. So i would have to say a shotgun is important firearm for someone's collection and allows a person to make a quick escape. Another factor is if the person is not a marksmen or their accuracy goes down under stress a shotgun might be more ideal than an AR. Just my opinion though.

[MossbergMan]

I in MOST scenarios a shotgun would be better..
mostly because i have an ounce of lead pretty much guaranteed to hit you all in center mass, and that is essentially without aiming, more like pointing, and in a house with birdshot down a hall or into a room it is pretty close to impossible to miss..

Juelz, I agree about the shotgun, but not for the same reasons. Have you ever patterned a shotgun? Please, get real. And birdshot? Yeah if it's the ONLY ammo you have left and the bad-guy is closer than 7 yards. I won't bore you with ballistics.
It's possible to miss, even with a shotgun, please do not delude yourself or anybody else into thinking that a shot pattern will compensate for the poor application of marksmanship skills. Aiming and trigger control are critical, don't ever forget that, EVEN WITH A SHOTGUN.
School Ajourned....

[juelz919]

Juelz, I agree about the shotgun, but not for the same reasons. Have you ever patterned a shotgun? Please, get real. And birdshot? Yeah if it's the ONLY ammo you have left and the bad-guy is closer than 7 yards. I won't bore you with ballistics.
It's possible to miss, even with a shotgun, please do not delude yourself or anybody else into thinking that a shot pattern will compensate for the poor application of marksmanship skills. Aiming and trigger control are critical, don't ever forget that, EVEN WITH A SHOTGUN.
School Ajourned....

that post was written in response to someone sayin a mini-uzi may be better than a shotgun for closequarters combat. so that post was written with clearing homes, and things of that nature in mind.
but to respond to what you said
I have indeed patterned my home defense shotgun, and i have done various types of training with it, if i can consistently hit moving 3 inch targets by just pointing i am confident to hit a person sized target. personally my natural point of aim is plenty even when moving. And in my post i said birdshot for down a hall or into a bedroom. the room i am in is 10ft. from the door to the wall, and 12 feet from the door to the furthest point in the room. 7 yards is 21 ft.
birdshot obviously doesnt have the reaching or penetrating cabability of other types of shot. But in my opinion Americans are vastly into overkill, and i am confident i can stop an intruder with birdshot
but if you think you can survive, let alone keep moving forward, with around 220 holes being blown in you you are a very tough human being

that being said i have at least a hundred rounds of 00 buckshot in my closet

[Cokebottle]

birdshot obviously doesnt have the reaching or penetrating cabability of other types of shot. But in my opinion Americans are vastly into overkill, and i am confident i can stop an intruder with birdshot
but if you think you can survive, let alone keep moving forward, with around 220 holes being blown in you you are a very tough human being

Crackheads are indeed pretty tough when they don't feel the pain.

From an earlier post:

http://www.shadonet.com/?cat=35

Range: 3 yards
Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnumn
Round: 12 gauge Remington Heavy Dove 1-1/8 oz #4 Birdshot
Gelatin: 9′x9′x19′ 10% ordinance gelatin block
Measured Average Permenant Cavity: 6.5 inches (16.5 cm)
Temporary Stretch Cavity: 0.0 to 6.0 inches (0.0 to 15.2 cm)
Even the #4 heavy bird shot load at 3 yards did not penetrate sufficiently to reliably stop an attacker, remember the FBI defines minimum acceptable penetration as 12 inches with 18 inches preferred.

Mythbusters likes to tout ballistics gel as being the same as hitting a person. It seems that the gel may be comparable to internal tissues, but this is ignoring skin and clothing.
There was a police shooting in Washington a couple of years ago where a .45acp only penetrated about 1" into the fat of a perp after having passed through his down jacket. IIRC, he was finally "taken down" by a "lucky shot" that shattered his forearm, taking the fight out of him.

[Navyguy0023]

It's possible to miss, even with a shotgun, please do not delude yourself or anybody else into thinking that a shot pattern will compensate for the poor application of marksmanship skills. Aiming and trigger control are critical, don't ever forget that, EVEN WITH A SHOTGUN.

Fully agree with MossbergMan!!

At 8 yards from a 18" barrel with no choke or little choke, the usable pattern won't be much bigger than a softball.

Birdshot


Buckshot


On a side note Hickok45 has some sweet videos!

[juelz919]

My post was refering to clearing homes, home defense etc. Like I said earlier from the door to the farthest part of my room is 12 feet. My body is only 9 inches from chest to back. My heart and lungs somewhere in the middle. approximately 200 bb's lying in my lungs and heart would stop me if I was doped up.