shorter than 2 in

[CandG]

That's why I use unaltered guns and the same ammunition that my sheriff's office uses for my CCW gun. No Black Talons, no Speer flying ashtrays, everything is plain Jane and as easily defensible as possible.

Not sure if you misread what I wrote, or if I just didn't articulate it well, but that's pretty much exactly what I said, not sure why you're saying I'm wrong and then explaining it by repeating more or less the same thing I said, or at least tried to say. Pretty sure I recommended using 2.75" 00-buck because it's the same thing everyone uses, so more easily defensible in court.

[Fjold]

Not sure if you misread what I wrote, or if I just didn't articulate it well, but that's pretty much exactly what I said, not sure why you're saying I'm wrong and then explaining it by repeating more or less the same thing I said, or at least tried to say. Pretty sure I recommended using 2.75" 00-buck because it's the same thing everyone uses, so more easily defensible in court.

My apologies, I thought that you were agreeing with what the OP stated, that's why I linked the two quotes.

[Citadelgrad87]

You guys don't understand.

The opposition lawyer, whether criminal or civil will take everything that you say and do and twist it to make you look like the crazed killer that he wants the jury to believe that you are.

That's why I use unaltered guns and the same ammunition that my sheriff's office uses for my CCW gun. No Black Talons, no Speer flying ashtrays, everything is plain Jane and as easily defensible as possible.

But your lawyer is supposed to respond with the real reason you did this, and proof the rounds arent more deadly.

You are planning on mounting a defense, aren't you?

[Tank 57]

But your lawyer is supposed to respond with the real reason you did this, and proof the rounds arent more deadly.

You are planning on mounting a defense, aren't you?

Easier (and cheaper) defense with unaltered ammo. Don't want my lawyer to bill me for more hours than needed.

[Citadelgrad87]

Easier (and cheaper) defense with unaltered ammo. Don't want my lawyer to bill me for more hours than needed.

Youre going to get sued either way. A 12g at across the room distances is going to be davastating no matter what you load it with.

I dont think the argument would hold any water.

[pennstater]

Well, I am NOT using some sort of "mini round" for HD. 12 ga 2&3/4" no. 4 shot lead is what is coming your way. Full charge, no "mini". Sales gimmick.

[Tank 57]

Youre going to get sued either way. A 12g at across the room distances is going to be davastating no matter what you load it with.

I dont think the argument would hold any water.

I agree. Hope I never find out.

Back to the original subject, years ago I bought some 2 inch Federal "Tactical Buckshot" that was a short shell reduced load. Was not in commercial packaging.

Don't remember shooting it. Have to look around and will post picture if I still have it.

[JagerDog]

Same old saw. Yet no one has shown me a case where a good shoot became a bad shoot based on reloaded ammo that approximates what is in the general marketplace.

A bit ironic that Ayoob, to substantiate his preference for factory ammo in SD/HD, cites a case where the suspect actually was acquited due to forensics inability to prove powder burns (suspect said his GF committed suicide, but powder burns didn't agree with that).

FWIW, I'm using handloaded 2-3/4" nickle plated #1 Buck. Birdshot is for birds.

There's laws specifically against poison tipped, fletchettes and I believe dum dum bullets. Black Talon? SXT is the same thing without the black coloration.

But yeah...I'll stick to time honored recipes vs. minishells. To need more capacity I've either got alot of bad guys or I'm missing a lot.

[Fjold]

But your lawyer is supposed to respond with the real reason you did this, and proof the rounds arent more deadly.

You are planning on mounting a defense, aren't you?

Yes, but why try to fight more arguments than you have to? The old adage still applies; K.I.S.S. Juries are notorious for voting with their feelings as much as their logic. The OJ trial and hundreds of others proved that.

[CandG]

Same old saw. Yet no one has shown me a case where a good shoot became a bad shoot based on reloaded ammo that approximates what is in the general marketplace.

A bit ironic that Ayoob, to substantiate his preference for factory ammo in SD/HD, cites a case where the suspect actually was acquited due to forensics inability to prove powder burns (suspect said his GF committed suicide, but powder burns didn't agree with that).

FWIW, I'm using handloaded 2-3/4" nickle plated #1 Buck. Birdshot is for birds.

There's laws specifically against poison tipped, fletchettes and I believe dum dum bullets. Black Talon? SXT is the same thing without the black coloration.

But yeah...I'll stick to time honored recipes vs. minishells. To need more capacity I've either got alot of bad guys or I'm missing a lot.

Look up the Harold Fish case in AZ. He was convicted of manslaughter in a self-defense case, largely because the prosecutor argues that his use of "extra deadly" 10mm proved his desire to kill someone. No, it's not a "sawed-off shotshell" case, but it proves that your ammo choice can come back to bite you.

[JagerDog]

Look up the Harold Fish case in AZ. He was convicted of manslaughter in a self-defense case, largely because the prosecutor argues that his use of "extra deadly" 10mm proved his desire to kill someone. No, it's not a "sawed-off shotshell" case, but it proves that your ammo choice can come back to bite you.

well..I pulled up a few articles, including his win on appeal and saw no such analysis.

Closest was:

The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection.* And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.
When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.
Lessler: Mr. Fish knew well what a hollow-point bullet does.
Larson: And the end product of his shooting is going to be death?
Lessler: Yes.

Hardly what either the conviction nor the succesful appeal hinged on.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/trail-evidence/

[CandG]

well..I pulled up a few articles, including his win on appeal and saw no such analysis.

Well, I didn't make it up.


Massad Ayoob Article:

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2009/07/21/fish-ordeal-%E2%80%93-over/

...prosecutor made a huge deal of Fish using a 10mm Kimber pistol and Federal hollow point ammunition to protect himself, convincing at least some on the jury that the large caliber gun and the somehow extra-deadly bullets were indications of malice.

Look... Is it legal to use (fill in the blank) ammo for self defense? Yes, of course it is. You can use a sword, or a grenade, or throw a school of piranhas at someone in self defense legally. I'm just saying, that if you're going to dedicate a weapon to self-defense use, you should make it as juror-friendly as possible. Don't use ammo labeled "RIP", or shotshells you modified yourself in your garage. That's my free advice, and worth every penny you paid for it.

If you don't give a crap what the jury thinks, that's your right, and honestly I don't care, I'm not sharing a cell with you or anything. Just trying to be helpful. If you want to argue and say I'm wrong and roll the dice that you might end up in a completely avoidable legal predicament, by all means, go for it, don't let me try to talk you out of it. Clearly the legal councel you consulted with prior to arguing with me knows better than I do, so I'll shut up.

Regarding the Fish case, it's all settled now and he's a free man, but if you get the chance, go ahead and ask him if his family would have rather avoided the issue.

That said, I'm slightly a hypocrite, because I carry 10mm daily But my ammo is marketed and sold as defensive ammo, so I am not concerned. What is your garage hack-job 12ga ammo sold and marketed as?

[JagerDog]

Well, I didn't make it up.


Massad Ayoob Article:

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2009/07/21/fish-ordeal-%E2%80%93-over/

Look... Is it legal to use (fill in the blank) ammo for self defense? Yes, of course it is. You can use a sword, or a grenade, or throw a school of piranhas at someone in self defense legally. I'm just saying, that if you're going to dedicate a weapon to self-defense use, you should make it as juror-friendly as possible. Don't use ammo labeled "RIP", or shotshells you modified yourself in your garage. That's my free advice, and worth every penny you paid for it.

If you don't give a crap what the jury thinks, that's your right, and honestly I don't care, I'm not sharing a cell with you or anything. Just trying to be helpful. If you want to argue and say I'm wrong and roll the dice that you might end up in a completely avoidable legal predicament, by all means, go for it, don't let me try to talk you out of it. Clearly the legal councel you consulted with prior to arguing with me knows better than I do, so I'll shut up.

Regarding the Fish case, it's all settled now and he's a free man, but if you get the chance, go ahead and ask him if his family would have rather avoided the issue.

That said, I'm slightly a hypocrite, because I carry 10mm daily But my ammo is marketed and sold as defensive ammo, so I am not concerned. What is your garage hack-job 12ga ammo sold and marketed as?

So Ayoob speaks out his butt again. Great.

I didn't say you made it up. I said your statement appears a mischaracterization regardless of where you heard/read the "analysis". Your statement was that the result of the trial was largely affected by the choice of gun/ammo. I can find nothing to substantiate that.

Read the Dateline article I linked. After-the-fact the jurors reflect on their decision. ONE had an issue,( a...not the) factor in his decision) with hollowpoint ammo (which most current defensive ammo is).

Fish was originally convicted that he didn't act in self-defense (and/or had better options). It wasn't about his firearm/ammo. The appeal revealed some rather serious errors in what evidence was allowed and not allowed, jury instructions, etc.

The rest of you argument isn't much better (one could say capricious). Of course Fish's family wishes the whole ordeal had never taken place and of course I'd be interested in convincing a jury should I find myself before one. Even if Fish had never gone to trial, I'm sure he'd wish the event never happened.

My "garage hacked" 12g SD ammo mirrors standard commercial SD ammo. I just happen to assemble it. Same with my 38, .357, 40SW and 45 ACP defensive ammo. An XTP, Gold Dot traveling at "X" velocity has no idea what it says on the box or whether it was assembled at Speer, Hornady or my garage.