2019 Lead ban

[pennstater]

Thanks for keeping this going. You fellas may be right on lower steel prices; I hope so. Been getting ammo price info at "Ammo Seek".com. Pretty good info there. sargenv; Agree with 7 steel being light. That is why if I get out Sat to Brawley, I'll be trying 2-3 different loads of #6 steel. Win Super-X, Fed Speed-shok and Estate's[Fed right?]. Hey, Merry Christmas! Time for a beer!

[Huntsprig]

Bismuth is 9.78 g/cm^3, steel is 7.86 g/cm^3 and lead is 11.34 g/cm^3

The deltas are:
bismuth v. steel - 1.92 g/cm^3
bismuth v. lead - -1.56 g/cm^3
steel v. lead - -3.48

-3.48/2 = -1.74, so on the continuum bismuth is for all practical purposes halfway between lead and steel. If the rule of thumb is to go up 2 shot sizes for steel, going up a single shot size for bismuth is sufficient.

Old lead duck loads were about like today's pheasant loads, lead #4, 5, or 6 shot in your preferred payload weight at 1200 - 1350 fps. This would be equivalent to bismuth #3, 4, or 5 with 5 being used for small -medium ducks, and 4 being used for medium ducks, and 3 being used for large - medium ducks. Obviously #4 seems to be the most versatile, but Precision has been out of it for quite some time so I've settled on 5. #5 bismuth is a good killer at practical ranges (35ish yards) at pretty modest velocities (1300 fps give or take). I feel that the smaller pellet of the #5 penetrates easier than the larger #4 or #3 pellet, and since killing winged animals is all about punching holes in vital parts, I'll take good penetration. I wouldn't use #5 bismuth on long shots on heavy boned animals (geese) or bad angles for the same (directly overhead into the chest for instance).

I feel that #5 bismuth is a good compromise for me. I load #6 for squirrels and rabbits, and 7.5 for doves and quail. While pattern density might be a problem shooting 5s for dove and quail, going down a choke size and practicing more should take care of that (and keep my supply chain easy to restock). Also, I think that #5 is a little light for ducks and pheasant, I'd want #4, but again, it hasn't been available for a while.

Honestly, when it comes right down to killing things it's about putting a few pellets in with enough oompf in the right place such that they penetrate all the way through the animal (or at least to the offside skin). That is done by selecting pellets of the correct weight, at the correct velocity, shot with a dense enough pattern at an appropriate range. Just like busting clays.

Excellent write up on Bismuth.

I have used Bismuth Cartridge Company and Winchester bismuth factory loads and own my reloads and have very good results on ducks and pheasants with #4 and #5 shot.
I have not tried the Rio bismuth shells but I would bet they would work well.
I still have 4 or 5 pounds of #4 shot I should load up one of these days.

I have read a couple of places that the Rio shot size on the box is British which is about one size smaller than the US size.

[Ducky's Dad]

Bismuth is just not economically viable for any kind of volume shooting on things like doves. Even when I bag a limit on one box of 25 (it happens), I'll be damned if I'm going to spend $2-$3 every time I pull the trigger on a dove or euro.

I have a few hundred rounds of bismuth in 12-16-20 gauges that I bought for ducks, and I'm not really a fan of the stuff. Other than the HD tungsten stuff that is mostly discontinued, my preferred non-tox would be tungsten-polymer, hard to find and hyper-expensive.

[edgerly779]

If anyone has any alternative to lead that is readonable I would like to know what it is. I have a couple superposed browning over unders and would hate to hurt barrels.

[NapalmCheese]

Itx is an option, I haven't used it yet but will try it once the full lead ban goes into effect.

[Ducky's Dad]

If anyone has any alternative to lead that is readonable I would like to know what it is.

Call Jerry Brown. When he signed the law, he said there were now reasonable alternatives to lead. For some applications, there is just no reasonable alternative if your definition of "reasonable" includes price.

[pennstater]

Well, it was a bit windy in the Brawley area and cool, very cool. And not many damn birds[ECD] to speak of. But, enough around some of the fields to try some #6 steel on. The Fed Speed-Shok seemed to work the best, but that damned wind made for some interesting shooting WHEN the birds were flying. They don't seem to care for cold and wind, as we know. So, it wasn't a real true test of these #6's, but, the Fed's folded a few, as did the others, it seemed the Speed-Shok's hit 'em a might harder. I like these Speed-Shoks. They seem to work well on dove.

[pennstater]

I recommend three things when it comes to steel shot and putting pellets on targets....... pattern your gun , pattern your gun , pattern your gun.

With different loads, shot sizes and different chokes.

Once you do it, it will be a real education and an eye opener. Steel does strange things...... just a choke size or a pellet size can be worlds apart in performance

^^^Yes indeed!^^^ As I'm going in small increments here, the steel 6's I mentioned, are the only one's I've patterned so far. The Speed-Shok with I/C seemed to pattern the best of the three. Not really a "expert" on this sort of thing, but, they were the best, followed closely by Estate, then Win.
This is in MY shotgun mind you. Pattern distance was 25 and 35 yards. All this pattern and steel stuff is still a learning curve for me. Things will improve.

[Nahuatl]

On hunting, coyotes in the condor zone, T-buck tungsten is now about $5 per shell as opposed to $2 for 3.5" lead 0000. I can shoot ~250 shells in a year. I've got the empties to prove it. That's $1250 for 8 months of sporadic killing which is small change compared to almost any other pastime.

On lead, it's a slippery slope, gentlemen. The rec shooters and ranges are next. This will be the argument. There are tons and tons of lead downrange, poisoning small animals, leaching into the water table, polluting runoff all the way to the ocean. Greenies will stand behind each other for any cause. But if you put a hunter, a shooter, a fisherman, an off-roader, a miner, and any other personal rights advocate in the same room, they are too independent to work together. They couldn't agree that the sky is blue.

How many hunters and shooters stood up against the MLPA?

[pennstater]

Thanks for the comments guys. I'm going to keep trying different steel loads to see what works. Hopefully after the holidays, I'll be picking up a good, used 12ga Wingmaster 3" to try loads in also with Remchokes. Happy New Year!

[Rcjackrabbit]

Nahuatl is right. They will come after all lead bullets. The no lead hunting rule is retarded beyond belief. It will also set a precedent for the attack on the RKBA in Kalifornia.

[pennstater]

Ok, this was brought up on the hunting forum, but, I'm bringing this up again.
Shooters/hunters ask what ga to shoot. 20, 12, what? This is regarding heading into the lead ban. Somewhat starting this season[2016], total by 2019. We already know of rifle restrictions, now it goes straight to shotguns. Handguns too. But, I'm being specific to shotguns here. What will you shoot? Used to be 7.5 lead for dove and quail. Now, #6 steel? #6 for Chukar? Lets talk shooters. Its getting closer than you think. You need to know what you're going to shoot in what gauge. Well?

[sargenv]

I've found steel shot loaded ammo in all the gauges.. even 16 gauge.

Usually the steel shot for the 410 and 28 are #6 or #7.

20 gauge has steel shot up to #2 loaded for hunting..

12 gauge I've seen steel as large as BBB and as small as #7. This is the most versatile gauge since there is everything from the lightest target loads up to the 3.5" BB and BBB steel for hunting geese..

My Rod & Gun club sells component 7's and 8's. I prefer 8's when shooting skeet.. usually the load is 3/4 of an ounce @ 1300 fps in 12 or 1/2 oz of 8's @ 1300 fps in 20 with Biodegradable wads. Since our club has to shoot non-toxic payload, bio-degradable wads, well, we've gotten creative on the handloads we use.. Otherwise we sell Kent Target ammo in 7/8 and 1 ounce payloads of 7's which work most semi-autos just fine.

I just picked up a 28 gauge 1100.. with intentions on loading Heavy-shot #5's or Steel 3's or 4's for early season ducks..

I've occasionally used my 20 ga 870 for ducks.. I still have some 4's and 6's in Tungsten Polymer and otherwise have a 3/4 ounce #3 steel load at 1600 fps.. If I let the birds work, the #3 steel load has worked well to about 35 yards but I like them closer if possible.

If I were going for chukar, I'd try 7's and first.. and switch 6's if they were flushing too soon. I would choose something with over 1350 fps for upland birds (or as much as the gauge allowed me to shoot) like dove, chukar, or quail. I also would use Improved or straight cylinder since steel shot patterns better with a more open choke. I've hit/killed plenty of ducks using an ounce of 2's @1600 fps with improved cylinder..

[leadstorm]

Ok, this was brought up on the hunting forum, but, I'm bringing this up again.
Shooters/hunters ask what ga to shoot. 20, 12, what? This is regarding heading into the lead ban. Somewhat starting this season[2016], total by 2019. We already know of rifle restrictions, now it goes straight to shotguns. Handguns too. But, I'm being specific to shotguns here. What will you shoot? Used to be 7.5 lead for dove and quail. Now, #6 steel? #6 for Chukar? Lets talk shooters. Its getting closer than you think. You need to know what you're going to shoot in what gauge. Well?

Dove and quail aren't that tough. I've bought a case of Winchester Xpert #7 steel 2-3/4" I'm going to try out in my 20ga this fall ahead of the mandate. If they work, then I'll stock up and that's what I'll use. A Texas study says steel works fine on dove, and I'd believe it - they're soft.

Chukar are a whole different story. I bought a case of 3" #4 steel (also 20ga) for them. If that doesn't pan out I'll reload Hevi or Nice Shot pellets for them.

I don't personally believe that I'll be forced to a 12ga in the end. The shot column is either on the bird or it's not.

[mtndragon]

My preferred turkey load is the Winchester Xtended Range Hi-Density #4 with an EF choke; it is discontinued and expensive, but it sure gets it done. I tried some steel shot #5 last year, and dropped my turkey, but it didn't provide a quick kill, it required some knife follow up. It could have been my shot placement, but I just am not convinced steel is the best for turkeys.