2019 Lead ban

[pennstater]

Hopefully this is the right forum for this.
It certainly looks like we shooters/hunters will be stuck with non-lead ammo for field use as of 2019. Rifle bullets are available, as are waterfowl shells.
But, what are the upland bird hunters going to buy? What size for what bird?
Example, lead #5's are excellent for Pheasant, #7.5's for dove. But, using steel, what are you hunters going to use? I know the rule of thumb is two sizes larger for steel, but I'd like to hear from our Ca hunters. Thanks.

[wweigle]

Good question. I was thinking about it the other day also. What am I going to use for Quail and Doves next years. Spring Turkey is before the Ban. What is a replacement for #7.5, #8 and #9 lead If you go with the two sizes larger philosophy then its #5 and #6 which seam to large if you want anything to be left of the bird. I guess that leaves #7 steel if they are even available, I have not looked. Pheasants will probably be the same as my waterfowl loads, usually #2s. I will be interesting to see what people ultimately decide is the best for the Quail and Dove size birds. I have not tried the steel alternatives such as Hevishot, or Bismuth, but it may make sense given the amount of shots I take each season on the smaller birds. I will stick to steel for waterfowl. It's going to be time this spring to pattern the shotgun with a few loads and chokes. I'm not sure what to expect.

[edgerly779]

^^ Next year no restrictions for dove & quail except on state lands. Since this is about hunting with non lead should be in hunting. Does not effect target shooting.

[pennstater]

Wasn't sure where to post. If the mods need to move it, fine. Just please let us know where, as I think this should be talked about a bit. Thanks.
Keep the replies coming guys. Thanks.

[wweigle]

Phase 2 – Effective July 1, 2016, nonlead shot will be required when taking upland game birds with a shotgun, except for dove, quail, snipe, and any game birds taken on licensed game bird clubs. In addition, nonlead shot will be required when using a shotgun to take resident small game mammals, furbearing mammals, nongame mammals, nongame birds, and any wildlife for depredation purposes.

Looks like I was wrong. Who ever wrote this should have stated the exceptions first, but after rereading this it looks like Phesants and Fall turkey are the only thing I see going into effect that would effect me based on this statement from:

https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/hunting/nonlead-ammunition

[NapalmCheese]

Phase 2 – Effective July 1, 2016, nonlead shot will be required when taking upland game birds with a shotgun, except for dove, quail, snipe, and any game birds taken on licensed game bird clubs. In addition, nonlead shot will be required when using a shotgun to take resident small game mammals, furbearing mammals, nongame mammals, nongame birds, and any wildlife for depredation purposes.

In other words, non-lead required for anything you shoot with a shotgun except for dove, quail, and snipe as of 1 July 2016.

Bismuth is a good killer of waterfowl. I see people moving in two directions: subgauge guns with lead alternatives other than steel, and 3 inch steel shells for everything else.

A 1 ounce payload of bismuth #5s in a 16 gauge gun still costs $1.70 in shot alone when you reload. Hunting ducks with bismuth has changed the way I shoot.

For me, bismuth 5s will probably take the place of lead 8 - 6 for winged and small game, and might also be a turkey load for me (dunno about that yet).

My biggest concern is that the Fish and Game commission won't update their turkey policy and will still require people to use shot size 2 or smaller for turkeys. If I use steel BBs for geese, it stands to reason I'd want to use steel BBs at least for turkey. Then there's the problem of using steel in full and x-full chokes (not really necessary for anyone that has patterned steel before, but for those that haven't...)

[NapalmCheese]

^^ Next year no restrictions except on state lands. Since this is about hunting with non lead should be in hunting.

Restrictions go in place for shotguns as of next july, including off of state lands.

I'd say this is at home in the shotgun forum as it is in the hunting forum. The dynamics of pattern density, speed, and pellet energy at range are important to hunters and non-hunters alike. More specifically, it's highly likely that you'll get responses from erudite shotgunners that have thought through this (or similar) problems as opposed to hunters that just happen to use a shotgun (and therefore don't give much thought to pattern density or energy and just buy whatever ammo the gun store clerk tells them to).

[BOBGBA]

I thought the density of bismuth was close to the density of lead, so no shot size adjustment was necessary.
I have a box or two of Herters #6 steel that I am going to try on quail.
I'm also going to try Hevi-Metal #6, it is a 50/50 load of #6 steel and #8 hevishot.
A friend of mine uses Hevi-Metal for duck hunting and he really likes it.

[NapalmCheese]

Bismuth is 9.78 g/cm^3, steel is 7.86 g/cm^3 and lead is 11.34 g/cm^3

The deltas are:
bismuth v. steel - 1.92 g/cm^3
bismuth v. lead - -1.56 g/cm^3
steel v. lead - -3.48

-3.48/2 = -1.74, so on the continuum bismuth is for all practical purposes halfway between lead and steel. If the rule of thumb is to go up 2 shot sizes for steel, going up a single shot size for bismuth is sufficient.

Old lead duck loads were about like today's pheasant loads, lead #4, 5, or 6 shot in your preferred payload weight at 1200 - 1350 fps. This would be equivalent to bismuth #3, 4, or 5 with 5 being used for small -medium ducks, and 4 being used for medium ducks, and 3 being used for large - medium ducks. Obviously #4 seems to be the most versatile, but Precision has been out of it for quite some time so I've settled on 5. #5 bismuth is a good killer at practical ranges (35ish yards) at pretty modest velocities (1300 fps give or take). I feel that the smaller pellet of the #5 penetrates easier than the larger #4 or #3 pellet, and since killing winged animals is all about punching holes in vital parts, I'll take good penetration. I wouldn't use #5 bismuth on long shots on heavy boned animals (geese) or bad angles for the same (directly overhead into the chest for instance).

I feel that #5 bismuth is a good compromise for me. I load #6 for squirrels and rabbits, and 7.5 for doves and quail. While pattern density might be a problem shooting 5s for dove and quail, going down a choke size and practicing more should take care of that (and keep my supply chain easy to restock). Also, I think that #5 is a little light for ducks and pheasant, I'd want #4, but again, it hasn't been available for a while.

Honestly, when it comes right down to killing things it's about putting a few pellets in with enough oompf in the right place such that they penetrate all the way through the animal (or at least to the offside skin). That is done by selecting pellets of the correct weight, at the correct velocity, shot with a dense enough pattern at an appropriate range. Just like busting clays.

[BOBGBA]

I think we are on the same page.
I typically use lead 7.5 for quail and either 7.5 or 8 for doves.
If I were to use bismuth, I'd use 7.5, which is no reduction in shot size and is the same shot size that it looks like you use.
I don't think I'd use anything smaller than #4 bismuth for ducks, unless it was for teal at close range.

[CandG]

I'm going to try some of this stuff soon:

http://www.rstshells.com/store/p/26-12-Ga-2-1/2-Lite-Vel-1175-1-oz-Load-Copper-Shot-Case.aspx

Solid copper (not plated) #6 shot.

The problem with steel shot is that you can't use it in many chokes, especially turkey chokes. I think this copper shot might be ok, or at least more ok. Unfortunately, I can only find this one manufacturer who makes such a think, and they only make #6 shot at the moment. Still, it might be a good option for at least some shotgun/game combinations.

[Bullets&Whitewalls]

I'm going to try some of this stuff soon:

http://www.rstshells.com/store/p/26-12-Ga-2-1/2-Lite-Vel-1175-1-oz-Load-Copper-Shot-Case.aspx

Solid copper (not plated) #6 shot.

The problem with steel shot is that you can't use it in many chokes, especially turkey chokes. I think this copper shot might be ok, or at least more ok. Unfortunately, I can only find this one manufacturer who makes such a think, and they only make #6 shot at the moment. Still, it might be a good option for at least some shotgun/game combinations.

Thank you for posting this. I have been trying to figure out what my options will be for next year too. I ended up buying a new gun because of it. Should be able to shoot the copper through the new gun since they claim it's ok with steel with the larger chokes. I wonder though now if I could shoot this through my older 16ga shotgun? Hmmmmmm

[CandG]

Thank you for posting this. I have been trying to figure out what my options will be for next year too. I ended up buying a new gun because of it. Should be able to shoot the copper through the new gun since they claim it's ok with steel with the larger chokes. I wonder though now if I could shoot this through my older 16ga shotgun? Hmmmmmm

I can only find it in 12ga, so you'd have to pull them apart and handload your own 16ga shells. Maybe someone sells solid copper shot by itself? If so, you might have more options than just #6 too.

[Thefeeder]

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I recommend three things when it comes to steel shot and putting pellets on targets....... pattern your gun , pattern your gun , pattern your gun.

With different loads, shot sizes and different chokes.

Once you do it, it will be a real education and an eye opener. Steel does strange things...... just a choke size or a pellet size can be worlds apart in performance

[NapalmCheese]

Thank you for posting this. I have been trying to figure out what my options will be for next year too. I ended up buying a new gun because of it. Should be able to shoot the copper through the new gun since they claim it's ok with steel with the larger chokes. I wonder though now if I could shoot this through my older 16ga shotgun? Hmmmmmm

PM me about 16 gauge stuff, or start another thread, or join the 16 gauge reloaders group.

I particularly enjoy the 16 and have decided to handload for instead of letting it languish in the back of the safe.