Flare Gun 22lr insert legality?

[RickD427]

The problem is not with the unsafe handgun law (Penal Code section 32000). So long as your flare-gun based firearm meets the dimensional requirements and is a single-shot, you're compliant with the safe handgun law until the end of this year. Beginning next year, you must build a break-top or bolt action firearm to be compliant. Since most flare guns are already of a break-top design, that's not going to be too much of an issue.

The problem, and where you might be committing a felony, is with California's "Zip Gun" statute. Please check out Penal Code sections 17360 (Defining a "Zip Gun") and 33600 (Making it a felony to manufacture or possess a "Zip Gun"). There are four criteria that have to be met to be guilty of violating the "Zip Gun" Statute:

1) The weapon must not have been imported by a licensed importer.

2) The weapon is not manufactured to the pattern of a licensed manufacturer.

3) No federal excise tax was paid on the weapon, nor was there an exemption granted from excise tax.

4) The weapon is a firearm.

If all four of these criteria are present, you're a felon. In the case of the flare gun adapter, conditions (1), (2) and (4) are already present. You're relying on the excise tax exemption to keep you out of jail. IANAL, but as an LEO, I've parsed out the statutes and concluded that I would not arrest anyone who made fewer than 50 weapons in a calendar year. The "Zip Gun" statute was very poorly maintained, the federal tax laws changed following the adoption of California's "Zip Gun" law, and we have a very awkward result.

Others, and some probably smarter than me, have read the same statutes and have concluded there is no exemption from excise tax, and no mechanism for a personal builder to pay federal excise tax, and therefore the builder of a non-pattern firearm has constructed an illegal weapon.

I'd do a lot more homework before going down that road.

[bohoki]

Others, and some probably smarter than me, have read the same statutes and have concluded there is no exemption from excise tax, and no mechanism for a personal builder to pay federal excise tax, and therefore the builder of a non-pattern firearm has constructed an illegal weapon.

I'd do a lot more homework before going down that road.

what the heck is a non-pattern firearm ive never seen any legal definition

if you comply with the definitions for the nfa exempt firearms rifles shotguns pistols then there is no tax due on the personally created firearm


in my experience these seem to be starting rules but there are more exacting standards these are just guidlines

rifles 16" barrel over all length 26" minimum one shot per trigger activation intended to be fired from the shoulder

shotguns 18" smoothbore barrel overall length 26 minimum intended to be fired from the shoulder one shot per trigger activation

pistols minimum barrel length depends on caliber and allows for enough barrel to be rifled intended to be gripped with one hand one shot per trigger activation

[Dinosaur Jr]

I gotta hand it to some of you guys who can follow, interpret the gun laws here in this lawyer loving state. I'm with Roach, when it comes to an oddity, there are soooo many rules, statements in the codes, gotta drive a normal man nutz!

I am soon to retire, maybe that is why these rules drive me crazy, outta here to a free state, the way Calif. USED to be, where a guy can go to your LGS, Walmart, whatever and buy the weapon of your choice, not be told it holds to many rounds, not safe, on roster, to short a barell, SSE, skip three times and do one backflip, GEEZ!

Those rules are only good on "secret Saturday". Weekdays require three somersaults, two back flips, 100 yards of cartwheels, and reciting the names of all sitting CA State legislators...

[RickD427]

what the heck is a non-pattern firearm ive never seen any legal definition

if you comply with the definitions for the nfa exempt firearms rifles shotguns pistols then there is no tax due on the personally created firearm


in my experience these seem to be starting rules but there are more exacting standards these are just guidlines

rifles 16" barrel over all length 26" minimum one shot per trigger activation intended to be fired from the shoulder

shotguns 18" smoothbore barrel overall length 26 minimum intended to be fired from the shoulder one shot per trigger activation

pistols minimum barrel length depends on caliber and allows for enough barrel to be rifled intended to be gripped with one hand one shot per trigger activation

Bohoki,

A non-pattern firearm is one that "was not originally designed to be a firearm by a manufacturer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto." (Definition from Penal Code section 17360).

There's no relevance to the issue of whether a tax was due. The relevant issue is whether an excise tax was paid, or there was an exemption from the tax provided by a narrow range of federal statutes. It may seem like a subtle point, but there is actually a big difference between a tax being due and a tax being paid or exempt. Those tax provisions are really confusing and hard to follow. We've been down that road before. Please check out the following threads:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=14494904

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=13801388

[mfj93444]

Those rules are only good on "secret Saturday". Weekdays require three somersaults, two back flips, 100 yards of cartwheels, and reciting the names of all sitting CA State legislators...

Perfect! Thanks for the laugh!

[bohoki]

A non-pattern firearm is one that "was not originally designed to be a firearm by a manufacturer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto." (Definition from Penal Code section 17360).


none of the firearms we build even the ones replicating similar ones
are "originally designed by a manufacturer" they were designed by us

[RickD427]

A non-pattern firearm is one that "was not originally designed to be a firearm by a manufacturer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto." (Definition from Penal Code section 17360).


none of the firearms we build even the ones replicating similar ones
are "originally designed by a manufacturer" they were designed by us

Bohoki,

Be careful here, you may be talking yourself into a felony. Don't let the pride of your personal build get the better of you.

The 80% builds that I see going on around here have all been pattern firearms (AR, AK, HK91, 1911). Building to a pattern is a pretty sure method of avoiding a "Zip Gun" charge.

[bohoki]

Bohoki,

Be careful here, you may be talking yourself into a felony. Don't let the pride of your personal build get the better of you.

The 80% builds that I see going on around here have all been pattern firearms (AR, AK, HK91, 1911). Building to a pattern is a pretty sure method of avoiding a "Zip Gun" charge.

you are reading the law wrong it does not say you can make one similar to one it means the one you make must have been designed by a manufacturer as a firearm and none are going to claim it as their design

[JasonL]

Can't one claim that one is making a derringer like this:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=437866762 using parts from a flare gun and other parts (the inserts)?
The action and trigger/hammer mechanism is the same.

[RickD427]

you are reading the law wrong it does not say you can make one similar to one it means the one you make must have been designed by a manufacturer as a firearm and none are going to claim it as their design

They don't have to claim it as their design. You build to the existing pattern. That's about the only "safe" way to avoid a Zip Gun charge given the differing opinions on the excise tax element.

[Tincon]

Unsafe handgun, zip gun, illegal, wrong forum.