ATI Scorpion 22LR Ammo...Stay Away!!!

[usmcmoose90]

***THIS IS A WARNING***DO NOT...I REPEAT...DO NOT BUY THIS CRAP NO MATTER HOW DESPERATE YOU ARE DURING THIS 22LR SHORTAGE***

I shot this stuff yesterday for the first time and I've got one word...CRAP! Absolute Cream of the CRAP!!! First and foremost, the best part...This stuff stove piped and failed to feed 4 to 6 times on every 10 Rd magazine I loaded. I shoot a Ruger 10/22, tricked with a PROMAG Archangle Nomad stock and a Magnum Research Bull Barrel. I would say isolated issue accept my friend has been shooting the same stuff from his M&P15-22 AR type and he has the same issues. Now the BAD part...After about 150 rds or so one of the primers exploded on me and just about caused me to dirty my 5.11 Taclite Pants. I immediately stopped what I was doing, dropped the mag, locked the bolt back and discovered the blown shell still in the chamber. I extracted the shell (Pics to follow), checked the bolt face and outside of the barrel (Not the inside as I should have), and decided to test fire some more rounds since I didn't see any damage. I fired about 30 more rounds with no visible issues (although the first round shot after the blown primer sounded different...Should have stopped here), packed my stuff and came home. Oh, it gets worse from here...As I began to disassemble my rifle to clean it I discovered the real damage...My bull barrel has a graphite surround. About an inch back from the muzzle the surround is cracked all the way around the barrel (See pics). Needless to say I am pissed! this was a $250 barrel when purchased. Very accurate and never had issues this whole time. Now its junk thanks to crappy ammo...Well, lesson learned...Do not buy this crap no matter how desperate you are during this 22LR shortage.





The Blown Casing







The Cracked Barrel

[morrcarr67]

That's not good

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[as_rocketman]

Glad you weren't injured.

Sounds like you may have had a squib. Sometimes a case head separation will start the bullet but fail to send it all the way out the barrel, since some of the pressure is venting at the chamber.

Hope you can get that rifle fixed. Obviously the barrel is toast and further test-firing didn't do it any favors, but since it did test-fire, I'm guessing nothing else is broken. Be careful out there.

[teg33]

Thanks for the warning. I just got a box of it today, planning to shoot it tomorrow. Glad you're not injured

[usmcmoose90]

Sure it was the round and not the barrel? Or a squib as mentioned earlier?

I have 1000 rounds of this stuff...and I love it.

Shoots just as well as Fiocchi CPLRN and Mini-Mag CPLRN. Only difference is it leaves some sulfur colored powder grains behind.

=8-)

I suggest you reexamine everything again...

=8-)

At this point I'm sure it was a squib. I'm starting to hate that term ; ) I didn't even know what a squib was until yesterday after my first post on this. I must have a bad batch.


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[usmcmoose90]

Sure it was the round and not the barrel? Or a squib as mentioned earlier?

I have 1000 rounds of this stuff...and I love it.

Shoots just as well as Fiocchi CPLRN and Mini-Mag CPLRN. Only difference is it leaves some sulfur colored powder grains behind.

=8-)

I suggest you reexamine everything again...

=8-)

I had such high hopes for this stuff cause it looks and feels solid.


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[usmcmoose90]

If you are in the Bay Area and don't want it - I'll take the rest at your Palmetto Price + Shipping cost.



=8-)

Not sure what you mean by Palmetto price. I'm gonna hang on to it in case ATI or ARMSCOR wants to do something for me. If they don't, I've already had a coworker offer to trade me a brick of Federal for the rest since he can shoot it in one of his wheel guns. Thanks for the offer though.


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[usmcmoose90]

Palmetto is where a lot of us got this from - 39.99 / brick + shipping.

=8-)

I got it a local dealer.


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[BigPimping]

Does Palmetto still have this stuff?

[golfguy]

Made in the Phillopines. Need we say more.

[usmcmoose90]

Out of battery and then squib...



...can't blame the ammo until further notice.



Anyone who tries until there's proof of this being bad ammo - should be brave enough to step up and let me take their batch off of them.



=8-)

As I mentioned in my initial post, this stuff was stove piping and FTF in both my 10/22 and my friends M&P15-22 every 4-6 rds in all 15 mags leading up to the squib. That's 60 to 90 rds out of 150 rds per each of us. So 120 to 180 rds total out of 300. That's a 40 to 60 percent fail rate. Then the blown primer...just the icing on the turd. That's bad ammo in my book. Again, maybe a bad batch, but until ATI or ARMSCOR contacts me like I hope with info that states as such and they send me a replacement brick to prove it, my first impression of this stuff will stand. Again, I'm happy it works for you. If u really want proof of how bad this stuff is let's do a swap for your "good" stuff. U can see how mine shoots for u and I can test your claims. Let me know.


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[usmcmoose90]

ATI's Response...Poor Customer Service IMO, 3 Strikes!!!

Well Folks,

As I've mentioned, I sent messages to both ATI and ARMSCOR about this issue and both have responded. I must say that these people did not attend the same customer service class. I will post ARMSCOR's response seperately...Notice the stark difference...Amazing!

ATI's 1st Reply:

"Jessie ,

Ammunition would not be at fault for the stove piping or the other concerns. What is your phone number so that we may have a informed representative contact you.

Thanks,
Jaime Ramos
American Tactical Imports"

My Reply

"Hello Jaime,

Thank you for responding. I've been shooting long enough to know that stove pipes CAN be caused by mechanical failures (Bad extractor, etc.) in the firearm as well as operator error ("limp wristing" with hand guns...As I was shooting a rifle, this was not an issue)...I am also aware that poorly manufactured ammunition CAN be the cause as well. The question in my case is what exactly was the issue? I don't have a laboratory or a controlled environment where I can effectively test this...I only have my experience and that of my friend's to help me come to a conclusion (right or wrong)...If the stove pipes were isolated to just me and my particular rifle (Ruger 10/22...Reputation precedes) I would have been more suspicious of the rifle itself. Two factors diminished my suspicions of the rifle...1. My friend was experiencing the same exact problem with his BRAND NEW Smith & Wesson M&P15-22 (AR Style), not only on this particular shoot but also on a previous shoot (without me being there)...This was my first time shooting this ammo...2. I loaded a magazine with some 20+ year old Federal (cheap bulk box stuff) and it shot flawlessly as ALWAYS, followed by experiencing the same issues with the Scorpion. When I shot this rifle previous to this day I finished off a cheap bulk box of 20+ year old Remington with NO issues...Again, I am fully aware that there is a REMOTE possibility that BOTH rifles could be malfunctioning (not plausible in my experienced and "informed" opinion though)...Finally, the eventual "Case Head Separation" (See Pics) that took place after about 150 rds (40% to 60% of which were stove pipes) is an ABSOLUTE indication of BAD ammunition. In retrospect, I have come to the realization and understanding that the case head separation didn't allow for enough pressure to send the bullet out of the barrel (Squib Round). The next round fired subsequently made contact with the lodged bullet and caused the damage to my barrel (See Pics)...Luckily not to me...

Without knowing all of the facts and actually being present during the shoot, I find it absolutely staggering that you would immediately dismiss the possibility that the ammo in question here was at fault...Is this how you were taught customer service? Also, to infer that I am not an "informed" individual by offering to have an "...informed representative contact..." me is insulting at best. If this was not your intention please clarify. What's even more disturbing about your response is that the potential exists for a bad (and DANGEROUS) lot of Scorpion ammo "on the loose" (very possibly in the hands of children learning how to shoot....22LR is popular for this) and you are so quick to dismiss this possibility...Ever heard of a lawsuit? I'm sure your boss has...Which by the way, I would be more than happy to discuss this with him/her if he/she is the "informed" person you referred to. My phone number is 619-717-1659. And before you spout off that this ammo is not designed for "Semi-Auto" firearms (as some manufacturers state) and I should have known better, please note that this disclaimer is nowhere stamped on the box...

Please let me know how we can resolve this issue ASAP...The firearms community on several forums including YouTube are anxiously waiting for an update on your response to my initial inquiry...I would hate for this first exchange to be my review...

Respectfully,
Jesse Collins
USMC Veteran, Shooter, & Hunter"

ATI's 2nd Reply

"Jessie ,

Let me begin by saying thank you for your information, we are not concerned with your background or knowledge at this time . We must follow standard operating procedure on every email that is sent to us as to get a resolution as fast as possible. Thank you for your phone number , we will have someone contact you to get the ammunition back to us and inspected as soon as possible . Please bear in mind that the individual calling is to set up the return only and will not be interested in the information you have already provided us, they will gladly listen and take notes but will have no final say in determining the resolution. We are sorry that this has happened and need to inspect the product before determining any resolution but we assure you we will get this done in a timely fashion. Your email is the first case of this happening and being brought to our attention, so the concern is mutual.

Thanks,
Jaime Ramos
American Tactical Imports"

My 2nd Reply

"Based on both of your replies to my inquiry, I do not trust that your resolution determination will be fair or even honest. First impressions are very important and just as my first impression of this ammo was terrible, so is my first impression of your customer service, which you have made no attempt to improve upon. Especially compared to the first response I received from ARMSCOR (the manufacturer of this ammo according to the box), see quote, sent yesterday at 1PM:

"ARMSCOR's reply (CGers...See Seperate Post)"

Might I suggest that you take note of what real customer service is like and make some revision to your SOP to accommodate. Rest assured, your responses will be posted on the forums that I already mentioned. People need to be aware of how poorly you deal with customers so they know to stay away from your products.

Respectfully,
Jesse Collins
USMC...Oh yeah...You're not interested..."

ATIs 3rd Reply

"Jessie,
Thank you. If you would still like to be contacted so that we may inspect the ammunition we have gladly extended our services, we patiently wait a response that will help the situation."

Some may think I'm being sensitive until you see ARMSCOR's response...

[usmcmoose90]

ARMSCOR's Response...Top Notch Customer Service IMO...

So here is ARMSCOR's reply...Hopefully they will actually be able to come through...Either way, I'm impressed...

ARMSCOR's 1st Reply

"Hello Jesse,

Thanks for contacting us. I am very sorry to hear about these issues. We will refund the purchase of the ammunition and we can setup a shipping label for the remaining ammunition and the damaged rifle for repair or replacement with receipts. What is your mailing address and the serial number of the firearm? Pictures would be very helpful.

Ryan Crotty
Customer Service Associate
Armscor Precision Intl | Rock Island Armory"

My Reply

"Hello Ryan,

Thank you for getting back to me. My mailing address is:

Blah
Blah
Blah

As far as the rifle goes, it is a Ruger 10/22 that my father bought me 20+ years ago...Do you still want the S/N? The action of the rifle was not damaged, but the barrel was. The barrel is also 20+ years old and is an after market upgrade, .920 Graphite Bull Barrel made by Magnum Research (see link), of which I do not have a receipt.

LINK

I've also attached pictures of the damage.

If you are willing to replace the barrel for me, would it be possible to receive a replacement from a different manufacturer at a lower cost then the $270 listed for the Magnum Research Barrel? If so, I've looked at the Tactical Solutions X Ring Barrel listed at $198 (See Link)

LINK"

ARMSCOR's 2nd Reply

"Hey Jesse,

I will need to run this by my supervisor for such a custom and older model firearm, I will have him copied in this email and await his direction.

Ryan Crotty
Customer Service Associate
Armscor Precision Intl | Rock Island Armory"

Still waiting on Ivan's reply...Either way, these folks have good CS IMO...

[Packy14]

good luck, sounds like Armscor is gonna take care of you, that makes me feel better about the 2 cases of armscor I have backordered.

[usmcmoose90]

usmcmoose90

This will be a lengthy post, so bear with me...

Part I

M&P 15-22

If you have ever noticed, the CCI Tactical ammunition is advertised as specifically designed to work with the Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22.

Notice that it has an FPS specification of 1200 fps.

Not 1260, 1255, 1240 or 1235 fps as is found with most quality 40 grain high velocity LRN or CPLRN ammunition.

That's the speed CCI is using to provide a cartridge that provides for reliable in battery operation. It's about timing...

I'm not a gunsmith, but simple logic on my part would suggest that your friend switch to the following ammunition:

CCI Tactical 40 grain CPLRN 1200 fps
CCI Select 40 grain LRN 1200 fps
Federal Champion AM22 40 grain LRN 1200 fps
Federal Gold Eagle HV 40 grain LRN 1200 fps

I will not be surprised if your friend upon using the above discovers that stove piping, failure to eject and failure to feed problems disappear.


PART II

Your Ruger 10/22 is famous for several things:

- Quality and Reliability at a Decent Price
- Wide Ammo Range Support
- Customization
- Match AND Plinking Application

One thing you have to remember is that the 10/22 as a semi-auto supports the use of High Velocity (plinking) and Standard Velocity (match) ammunition.

Usually with that wide of a range - on the high velocity side - it's going to be the low 1200's fps-wise for reliable in-battery function using quality ammo:

CCI Mini-Mag 40 grain CPLRN 1235 fps
Federal Game Shok 40 grain 710 CPLRN 1240 fps
Federal Champion 510 40 grain LRN 1240 fps
CCI Select 40 grain LRN 1200 fps
CCI Tactical 40 grain CPLRN 1200 fps
Federal Gold Eagle HV 40 grain 1200 fps
Federal Champion AM22 40 grain 1200 fps

Anything else higher...you need to test first:

Fiocchi 22FHVCRN 40 grain CPLRN 1250 fps
ATI Scorpion 40 grain CPLRN 1260 fps
Aguila SuperExtra 40 grain CPLRN 1255 fps ???

...and even more so for bulk cheap ammunition:

Remington Thunderbolt 40 grain LRN 1255 fps
Winchester M*22 40 grain LPLRN 1255 fps

Testing is important...

Your Ruger 10/22 gave you a heads up in the form of repeated stove pipes and such...after just a few you should have stopped right there.

That's what I did when I used Winchester M*22 in my Sig Mosquitos...

...stopped after a half-dozen...examined the casings...made the determination that the brass was expanding and getting stuck in the breech.

I no longer use Winchester M*22 in my Sig Mosquitos.

You on the other hand continued onward despite the warnings your Ruger was giving you:

OUT OF BATTERY

To make matters even worse, you have a customized Ruger 10/22 with a third party bull barrel.

That alone increases the "fault" variables...

I can understand both ATI's and Armscor's responses...

Put yourself in their shoes...someone walks in the door complaining about ammuniton damaging a customized Ruger 10/22 after a dozen or so stove pipes.

Let's not even get started as to whether or not your ejector is in good, clean and properly lubricated condition...


PART III

...actually, let's talk about that ejector. Even with my Sig Mosquitos it could be clearly seen that the ejector made attempts at extracting the casing no matter how tight they were in the breech.

Ding and crimp on the rim. A few casings about a 1/3 of the way out with ejector scratch on the rim...

You might want to take a very close at the ejector on your Ruger 10/22. They do wear out - they do get stuck.

Take another look...

=8-)

I do appreciate your input here. I shall take a look at my ejector again, however I don't think I've shot this rifle enough times during its life to cause the ejector to be worn. I've never really considered the detailed technicalities of ammunition versus the firearm's capabilities as you have laid out here. Unfortunately I've never had the fortunate position, or disposable enough income for that matter, to test these kinds of variables over a long enough period of time to understand and apply them as you have. Again, I appreciate your input, and hope to one day understand the relationship between different types of ammo and my firearms. I shall look into it more. Would love to continue to dialogue with you on this subject if you don't mind.

On a side note, seems to me that if a manufacturer is going to offer ammunition that may not work with certain firearm types because of velocities and such, said manufacturer would make customers aware of this instead of saying nothing so customers in my situation, which would probably be the majority, end up assuming (I know, a**, you, me...) that it will work with anything. The warning on the box only says, "USE only firearms in good condition with markings exactly matching ammunition." This says nothing bout. velocity and such versus type of firearm. I've taken plenty of firearms courses and have never heard anything along the lines of your mentionings. You take classes or just learn this stuff by experience? If by experience alone, this takes way more time then some of us have, and some of those experiences can be dangerous if not deadly, such as mine. So, hear I am, finally learning about all this, after having gone through an experience that could have seriously hurt me because the manufacturer only says, "Make sure you shoot 22LR ammo only in a 22LR Firearm". Am I making sense or just rambling? Anyways, thanks again.


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