Using sling to stabilize modern rifle?

[BigFatGuy]

I went to an Appleseed event, and was introduced to their method of using the sling to add tension to the rifle and stabilize the shot...

I've done some reading, and according to some, modern barrels flex too much for this to be effective, that this technique is best suited to heavy steel barrels in wooden stocks... Apparently the military no longer teaches this for this very reason...

Now, I did put 5 rounds in a 1"square at 25 meters, so this idea clearly isn't without merit... I just wanted to poll a greater expertise than my own...

Do people shooting modern off the shelf rifles use the strap as Appleseed suggests? Does anyone have issues with it flexing the barrel?

[Merc1138]

Flexing the barrel? Would happen with anything, modern or antique if the sling attachment point is on the barrel(or a gas block attached to the barrel). It's not necessarily that you're causing the barrel to flex or bend(well, you could if you had a thin enough barrel), but it's impossible to maintain consistent sling tension and screws up the harmonics of the barrel.

It's the same reason you're not supposed to put a barrel on a rest.

Free floating the barrel and attaching the sling to the stock or free float tube avoids this problem. AR platform rifles in a configuration for service rifle matches have free float tubes underneath the standard looking handguards for this purpose. If you're talking about ruger 10/22s, marlins, etc. then you need a stock that doesn't flex so much that it causes contact with the barrel.

As far as why the military no longer teaches it, no idea(although the various configurations of rifles they currently use seem to pretty much all rely on barrel mounted sling attachments, so maybe that has something to do with it).

edit: Here's what I mean by a service rifle free float tube:

[navin r]

For whatever it's worth my Taccom AR22 is free floated.

For those with any interest the Appleseed method may be found here:

http://becomingriflemen.wordpress.com/becoming-riflemyn-the-text/

[Rock6.3]

My AR10 and AR15 have a sling mount on the free floated handguard (not attached to the barrel). Appleseed sling method works great.

My M1 Garand, Ruger 10/22, 1903-A3 all work great with the Appleseed sling method.

If your sling mount is attached to your barrel or front sight post on the barrel, then yes you can move your point of impact by varying the tension on the sling. But your groups should be smaller than without a sling.

[thenodnarb]

I do this with every rifle I have a sling for. Shooting offhand, your ability to aim precisely trumps the slight barrel harmonic vibration variances that occur. When shooting from a rest, there is no need for a sling.

[JackRydden224]

I do this with every rifle I have a sling for. Shooting offhand, your ability to aim precisely trumps the slight barrel harmonic vibration variances that occur. When shooting from a rest, there is no need for a sling.

This.

Let's be practical about it. When you are shooting off hand with a sling you are not trying to shoot 1 MOA, you are mostly trying to hit targets. In that situation your technical is going to out weight your barrel vibration.

This whole barrel vibration thing is greatly exaggerated by people who are extremely methodical about their setups to achieve the best groups. Different type of shooting for different individuals. I've never missed because of barrel vibration. I miss because I can't hold my rifle steady and I jerk the trigger (lack of practice!)

[BigFatGuy]

The engineer in me wonders if there isn't a benefit to having a spring-tension device in the sling to help generate even tension each time you mount...

[Merc1138]

This.

Let's be practical about it. When you are shooting off hand with a sling you are not trying to shoot 1 MOA, you are mostly trying to hit targets. In that situation your technical is going to out weight your barrel vibration.

This whole barrel vibration thing is greatly exaggerated by people who are extremely methodical about their setups to achieve the best groups. Different type of shooting for different individuals. I've never missed because of barrel vibration. I miss because I can't hold my rifle steady and I jerk the trigger (lack of practice!)

The point is to simply remove something that can cause inconsistency. If you want to hit small targets consistently, you need to remove or at least minimize variables. Free floating is an easy(but not necessary for most people in most applications) thing to do.

The engineer in me wonders if there isn't a benefit to having a spring-tension device in the sling to help generate even tension each time you mount...

Maybe, but at the same time elimination of the pulse from your arm is another one of those normally minuscule things people try to eliminate. I agree that odds are using a sling even without free floating the barrel is going to be better than going without, but like I said above free floating is just another thing to do. Plus, if such a spring tensioned sling wasn't allowed in matches, it wouldn't ever get much use. Also, even if the force applied were the same, then you'd still need to get the direction right every time. On top of that, changing loads can change the barrel harmonics, which would mean even more adjusting of such a spring tensioned sling. It would be easier to just avoid the issue to begin with.

[as_rocketman]

Let me try to clear up a couple of things, if I may.

In brief, slinging up tight will affect the point of impact on any rifle. However, the effect is tiny. So small, in fact, that if you need to worry about it, you already employ techniques to compensate for it.

Whenever possible, i.e., in any unsupported position, you should use your sling as a steadying aid. It is extremely useful in this role. Even top competitors sling up unless the rules say otherwise.

Slinging up means putting stress on the sling attachment, usually the forward swivel of a stock. This is true whether you use Hasty or Loop sling. Typically the stress is about 5 to 30 pounds, depending on the user. I sling up rather tight, but as long as the sling takes some tension it will have an effect.

The effect on your point of impact is not related to barrel harmonics. Instead, the force is actually deflecting the barrel, bending it away from the sight axis. This is because steel is very flexible -- otherwise it would crack and then fail after repeated firings. As a result if you sling up with different tension, it will change the point of impact, if slightly.

Resting the barrel on a hard surface is a different story. That does change barrel harmonics, and this typically opens up the group rather than changing point of impact. The difference is because barrel harmonics have to do with the stress of firing, which can exceed thousands of pounds per square inch. Your support hand and your sling cannot react to this force, but a hard surface like a concrete bench can.

You can see this effect by carefully adjusting handloaded ammunition -- which one tunes for best harmonics. Or with barrel harmonizing devices, such as the Browning BOSS. I have one of these. It's super loud but it works if you want top accuracy from factory ammunition. When out of tune, the groups open up, up to about 3 MOA or so from a rest. In tune it is a sub-MOA shooter. But they're round groups. They look nothing like the vertical stringing you would theoretically get from inconsistent sling tension.

But if you sling up with the same tension, more or less, you will get a consistent impact. You're only going to see an effect if you alternate using the sling versus not using it -- and if you're not using the sling, odds are your groups are so large you'll never know the difference anyway.

Let's take an example. You mention a "modern rifle" in your OP, I'm assuming you mean an AR-15. For some reason, the only people who worry about this are AR-15 owners. Well, I'd guess at least 80% of Appleseed instructors have an AR-15, myself included, and we don't notice any big shift in point of impact. (Yes, we all sling up. All of us.)

Here's mine:



I sling up tighter than most, and I have little trouble getting first-round hits at 600 meters. Typically I shoot 2.5 MOA groups with this rifle and M193 ammunition. Without using the sling, it would be much worse. Now, I do have a heavy barrel and a free-float tube, but my sling is attached to the gas block, so there is some deflection. But it's too small to notice.

Suppose you had a 20" light contour ("pencil barrel") AR-15, with the usual handguards instead of a free-float tube. If you put this rifle on a sled and pulled the trigger remotely to find your zero, then slung up with it super tight to shoot unsupported, you would find your zero had moved. But no more than 3 or 4 MOA tops,and it will be consistent. So... shoot a sighter, and adjust. Done. For a more typical rifle the shift would be even less.

Another option, if you run such a test and decide it's too much of a shift to be happy with, is to put on a fully free-floated rail and attach your sling to that. In this case the barrel doesn't touch the sling. You're only going to warp the receiver a tiny bit by slinging up. That will still move the point of impact a little, but now we're into fractions of MOA that blend in with all the other unavoidable sources of inaccuracy. It's not worth worrying about.

Truly high-precision rifles that do worry about small fractions of MOA typically don't use slings at all, instead being shot from mechanical rests, simply because there's not a shooter alive who can shoot that well unsupported. Owners of these precision rigs also do things like tighten all bolts and screws to precise torque values, for similar reasons. For someone in this camp, all of these minor factors are things that go into the log book, and if needed can be compensated for with very fine sight adjustments.

Bottom line, use your sling. Ammo's too expensive to waste!

Also for the record there is no "Appleseed Way." We did not invent any of the techniques we teach. The specific loop sling we like was in Army field manuals almost eighty years ago. We just teach what works in practical marksmanship, something Americans have been perfecting since the days of sail.

Out of my eight rifles, I have GI M1 slings on seven of them -- battle rifles, fighting carbines, hunting rifles, and rimfire trainers. The only one that doesn't is my M1 Carbine, and only because to do so would require semi-permanent modifications, which is blasphemy... The M1 Carbine is a 3 MOA rifle on a good day anyway, and I shoot it plenty well with its side-mounted carry strap in hasty. No need to fix what isn't broken.

[Fishslayer]

As far as why the military no longer teaches it, no idea(although the various configurations of rifles they currently use seem to pretty much all rely on barrel mounted sling attachments, so maybe that has something to do with it).

Maybe it's those slings that stick the butt up over your head?

I still use the old hasty sling and it works for me.

[BigFatGuy]

... A long post...

Thanks for the taking the time it must have taken to write that comment / essay...

Like I said, I did find I had some moments of brilliance in class... I just found it odd of that so many people seemed to think badly of the technique... And they WERE all AR15 owners...


Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[Merc1138]

Maybe it's those slings that stick the butt up over your head?

What?

[randomBytes]

Curious, how many folk diss'ing use of sling scored "rifleman" ?

I've done appleseed with a standard AR pattern rifle (.22 upper though)
with GI sling - and yes got rifleman.

Standing offhand, with good skeletal support I can group about as well without a sling, but in the other positions - especially prone it makes a huge difference.

[navin r]

Great explanation Rocketman thank you.

[jarhead714]

Let me try to clear up a couple of things, if I may.

In brief, slinging up tight will affect the point of impact on any rifle. However, the effect is tiny. So small, in fact, that if you need to worry about it, you already employ techniques to compensate for it.

Whenever possible, i.e., in any unsupported position, you should use your sling as a steadying aid. It is extremely useful in this role. Even top competitors sling up unless the rules say otherwise.

Slinging up means putting stress on the sling attachment, usually the forward swivel of a stock. This is true whether you use Hasty or Loop sling. Typically the stress is about 5 to 30 pounds, depending on the user. I sling up rather tight, but as long as the sling takes some tension it will have an effect.

The effect on your point of impact is not related to barrel harmonics. Instead, the force is actually deflecting the barrel, bending it away from the sight axis. This is because steel is very flexible -- otherwise it would crack and then fail after repeated firings. As a result if you sling up with different tension, it will change the point of impact, if slightly.

Resting the barrel on a hard surface is a different story. That does change barrel harmonics, and this typically opens up the group rather than changing point of impact. The difference is because barrel harmonics have to do with the stress of firing, which can exceed thousands of pounds per square inch. Your support hand and your sling cannot react to this force, but a hard surface like a concrete bench can.

You can see this effect by carefully adjusting handloaded ammunition -- which one tunes for best harmonics. Or with barrel harmonizing devices, such as the Browning BOSS. I have one of these. It's super loud but it works if you want top accuracy from factory ammunition. When out of tune, the groups open up, up to about 3 MOA or so from a rest. In tune it is a sub-MOA shooter. But they're round groups. They look nothing like the vertical stringing you would theoretically get from inconsistent sling tension.

But if you sling up with the same tension, more or less, you will get a consistent impact. You're only going to see an effect if you alternate using the sling versus not using it -- and if you're not using the sling, odds are your groups are so large you'll never know the difference anyway.

Let's take an example. You mention a "modern rifle" in your OP, I'm assuming you mean an AR-15. For some reason, the only people who worry about this are AR-15 owners. Well, I'd guess at least 80% of Appleseed instructors have an AR-15, myself included, and we don't notice any big shift in point of impact. (Yes, we all sling up. All of us.)

Here's mine:



I sling up tighter than most, and I have little trouble getting first-round hits at 600 meters. Typically I shoot 2.5 MOA groups with this rifle and M193 ammunition. Without using the sling, it would be much worse. Now, I do have a heavy barrel and a free-float tube, but my sling is attached to the gas block, so there is some deflection. But it's too small to notice.

Suppose you had a 20" light contour ("pencil barrel") AR-15, with the usual handguards instead of a free-float tube. If you put this rifle on a sled and pulled the trigger remotely to find your zero, then slung up with it super tight to shoot unsupported, you would find your zero had moved. But no more than 3 or 4 MOA tops,and it will be consistent. So... shoot a sighter, and adjust. Done. For a more typical rifle the shift would be even less.

Another option, if you run such a test and decide it's too much of a shift to be happy with, is to put on a fully free-floated rail and attach your sling to that. In this case the barrel doesn't touch the sling. You're only going to warp the receiver a tiny bit by slinging up. That will still move the point of impact a little, but now we're into fractions of MOA that blend in with all the other unavoidable sources of inaccuracy. It's not worth worrying about.

Truly high-precision rifles that do worry about small fractions of MOA typically don't use slings at all, instead being shot from mechanical rests, simply because there's not a shooter alive who can shoot that well unsupported. Owners of these precision rigs also do things like tighten all bolts and screws to precise torque values, for similar reasons. For someone in this camp, all of these minor factors are things that go into the log book, and if needed can be compensated for with very fine sight adjustments.

Bottom line, use your sling. Ammo's too expensive to waste!

Also for the record there is no "Appleseed Way." We did not invent any of the techniques we teach. The specific loop sling we like was in Army field manuals almost eighty years ago. We just teach what works in practical marksmanship, something Americans have been perfecting since the days of sail.

Out of my eight rifles, I have GI M1 slings on seven of them -- battle rifles, fighting carbines, hunting rifles, and rimfire trainers. The only one that doesn't is my M1 Carbine, and only because to do so would require semi-permanent modifications, which is blasphemy... The M1 Carbine is a 3 MOA rifle on a good day anyway, and I shoot it plenty well with its side-mounted carry strap in hasty. No need to fix what isn't broken.

This post is written as though it were an article in a gun magazine. We should have to pay a fee for this kind of dope. Good stuff!