.22s will not fire nor eject

[dinnerplate]

just tonight, i took my brand new ar-15 in .22LR down to the range. i'd never fired the ar-15 before. it consists of a regular daniel defense lower and a dedicated tactical solutions m4 carbine .22LR upper. i used black dog 10 round magazines. i have a regular bravo company .223 upper i haven't used yet either, but i didn't take that tonight.

the sequence of events is:

- load black dog .22LR mags with remington golden bullet (don't know the grain or fps), and then manually charge handle. it chambers a round, and i fire it. it ejects and loads the next one. i pull the trigger, and nothing.
- i then manually pull handle to eject the round, but the ejector hook doesn't properly grab the round, and the slide mashes the bullet when it springs back forward. i remove the round with my finger.
- i manually pull handle to load next round, and it chambers. i fire it, and the spent case ejects. i pull trigger again, but nothing. checking the rim, i find a very faint firing pin indent on the "dud" round in the chamber. i try this a few more times, and the same result.

- i then try loading the black dog mags with winchester "555" rounds (36 grain; 1280 fps). this time, the first one fires, but the spent case isn't properly ejected. the second one doesn't chamber properly, and gets smashed again. i try this several more times, and it's the same result: the first shot after manually pulling the handle always fires, but either the spent case doesn't eject, or the next round doesn't fire. it only has a faint pin strike on the rim.

- thinking the rounds were too low-velocity to blow the slide/hammer back, the guy behind the counter gives me some remington viper rounds (36 grain; 1410 fps). same thing happens: the first round after manually pulling handle fires, but subsequent ones don't. it's either because the ejector hook doesn't properly grab it, or the next round just doesn't fire.

- when i get home, with the black dog mags out, i insert a single dummy round into the chamber. i pull the slide back and let it spring back forward. i look to see if the ejector hook has successfully grabbed the round - it has. i try that with several other rounds too (including the ammo i mentioned above), and the same thing: the ejector hook grabs onto each round's rim. but when i try pulling the handle hard to simulate blowback, the round doesn't eject properly and stays inside the chamber. this doesn't seem normal, even with a full round.

does anyone have ANY idea why this is happening? these are quality parts from what i know, and shouldn't be experiencing these malfunctions.

is it true what the range employee suggested, that the blowback from the .22LR round isn't sufficient to throw cock the hammer on a standard m4 lower? if it is true, that would explain why the second round after pulling the handle always failed: because the hammer was never cocked back, and instead lightly pushed against the firing pin.

i bought about 2200 rounds of the winchester "555" ammo, btw. i truly hope it's the black dog mags, and not the ammo.

sorry for writing a novel here. thanks again guys in advance for the help.

[Diesel-Gunner]

is it true what the range employee suggested, that the blowback from the .22LR round isn't sufficient to throw cock the hammer on a standard m4 lower? if it is true, that would explain why the second round after pulling the handle always failed: because the hammer was never cocked back, and instead lightly pushed against the firing pin.

If you go by the range employee's suggestion, then all of the Spikes Tactical uppers should be doing the same thing to all lowers. Spikes Tactical website states that un-notched hammers work best with their uppers and the uppers may require some tuning.

http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72_73&products_id=122

I would contact them and see if they can point you in the right direction. Its a lot of money to not be working correctly.

[bjl333]

Try running a 9mm hammer. They are cheap and fast to replace. The hammer might be binding the bolt as it comes back ... Just a thought !!!

[dinnerplate]

good point about all uppers then having that same problem. i'm definitely a noob to all of this, so it's possible the stock hammer just is too heavy or the wrong shape. it begs the question then: if i replace the hammer so that the .22LR runs, won't it cause the .223 upper to NOT run? or run too slick and damage the internals?

[Droppin Deuces]

I know for a fact that the Spike's upper works with a normal AR lower. Just ran about 300 rounds of Win Xpert HV 36 grain through on one Thursday. The .22 conversions and tactical solutions uppers seem to like that stuff.

As far as the ejector problem, that's normal as far as I can tell. You have to remember that the blowback from the round is what moves the action and helps the round to seat in there. The latch isn't really there to hold the cartridge as much as it is to assist in flipping it out of the chamber. I had the same "problem" of the latch not holding the brass when trying to eject it manually when I first started using a conversion, but quickly learned that as long as there is enough of a load to blow back the action, it worked great.

I would just try different ammo.

[Grumpyoldretiredcop]

i've contacted spike's, so nothing to do but wait on that.

good point about all spikes then having that same problem. i'm definitely a noob to all of this, so it's possible the stock hammer just is too heavy or the wrong shape. it begs the question then: if i replace the hammer so that the .22LR runs, won't it cause the .223 upper to NOT run? or run too slick and damage the internals?

If the problem is caused by a notched hammer (I had that problem), and you replace it with a non-notched hammer, you won't notice the difference when firing .223/5.56. I don't have any experience with 9MM hammers.

If you wind up replacing or modifying your hammer spring (and I wouldn't recommend doing that), the weaker hammer spring might not generate enough energy to fire rifle primers. You would not "damage the internals".

[dinnerplate]

that's pretty much what i heard too, about the notched hammer. they also mentioned that i should try filing down the front part of the extractor so it sits more flush with the barrel's extractor slot. i took the ol' dremel and did just that, and it helped. the extractor hook grabs onto the round each time now.

but the firing pin still does not leave a proper dent in the round. the first pic is what a dummy round looks like when i fire it in my buckmark pistol:


now, this is what it looks like when i put it in the spike's upper. i tried manually pulling the charging handle and then firing it, two times:


a look at the firing pin looks fairly normal, both retracted and unretracted:



the hammer in my lower looks notched, but i can't be sure this is what you guys are talking about:


so now i'm contemplating my next move:
- order a new, unnotched hammer. i had a RRA two stage trigger kit on the way anyway, so i hope it's coming with an unnotched hammer.
- try shooting different ammo. i went out and got federal, cci mini mag, and winchester wildcat today. but driving to the range seems rather pointless given the extremely light firing pin strikes. i doubt that'll be enough to prime.
- cutting the recoil spring a little bit. this seems premature though.

any guidance? thanks again, guys.

[dinnerplate]

i'm sorry. i've been saying that this is a spike's upper, when it's actually a tactical solutions upper. when i was deciding which to get, it was between those two, and the "tactical" in both names had me screwed up. or i should just stop smoking crack. my apologies to spike's - there's nothing wrong with your unit, and i hope i didn't cause any damage.

[Droppin Deuces]

That is indeed a notched hammer. Also, I could be wrong, but aren't the Spike's and TS systems the same?

[dinnerplate]

i'm really the wrong person to ask, but both have been great in their customer service so far. sorry again, spike's.

it turns out that there was a pattern. on the light strikes (failures), the bolt would not line up completely with the barrel. there was a slight gap:


it would fire perfectly when the bolt was closed fully with no gap:


so that's the problem, and it's good to know. but a dedicated upper at that price shouldn't HAVE these kinds of issues to begin with, right? and how do i fix this for good?

[Droppin Deuces]

You know, my CMMG converson had a similar problem when i first installed it. It was driving me nuts until I realized two things:
First, it turns out you have to remove the piston on a piston upper to allow the conversion bolt to properly seat in the chamber. Heh
Second... I noticed after careful inspection that when installing the conversion, there was a very tiny excess of of metal on one side of the back plate which caused it to twist just a TINY bit and not allow the extractor to align and go into the slot. Solved the problem same way as you - I just got the dremel out and ground(grinded?) down the section in question, and now it's perfect.

I wonder if you might be having a similar issue. Hard to tell with a dedicated upper, since the bolt/slide and chamber are not connected the way they are on a conversion.
Maybe try pulling the assembly out the back of the receiver and see if it has any torsional tension in either direction.

[dinnerplate]

yeah, i've done a check for stuff like that, but i think i mainly got it. either way, i've got to think the action will move much better now that its had a few rounds through it.

btw, tacsol immediately sent me a rounded hammer. they and spike's both have been great.

[dinnerplate]

i have to finish this up by relating a little of my experience with tactical solutions. i'd been emailing back and forth with gabe from tacsol (he's blazing fast with the response). as i mentioned, he sent me a rounded hammer already, but he also gave me his cell number to call this weekend when i test fire the upper. i'm guessing so he could help me troubleshoot it? either way, i wrote him i wanted a replacement from riflegear (where i bought it) instead, and he said no problem. i took it down to riflegear to do the exchange, and you guys from LA know how fun that drive is. they had some problems processing it, and i'm getting pissed because of the drive and now i might have to cancel plans with friends to shoot the upper. so i sent gabe an email asking him to call me, but pretty sure this day isn't going to go the way i want. thirty seconds later, he calls and sets everything straight with riflegear, and they exchange it on the spot.

as a sidenote, tacsol also said that i could send the upper AND MY LOWER on their dime, and they would make sure it runs perfectly, shipping it back out to me. that's pretty cool too.

i would have had to make the drive down AGAIN to riflegear, not to mention cancel pretty solid plans with people otherwise. thanks again to gabe and tactical solutions for all your great service. it sounds like people buy with confidence from tacsol anyway, but this just affirms it a little more.

[bplvr]

Install the pistol hammer {$5.00} , remove the recoil piston, install a set of 3 LB. J-P springs from Midway {$8.00} and use copper plated ammo{less chamber drag} You can also polish the top of the chamber for better feeding.