Request for help: "better" ammo suggestions

[RawHP]

If you buy a car that supposed to run on regular unleaded, but pings and misfires, but runs OK on premium, you wouldn't assume the car is fine. The premium gas is masking the problem. I haven't seen anywhere where Ruger warns the user never to use bulk ammo with a 10/22. If it doesn't, something is wrong. After all, the gun is a plinking gun; a VW, not a Ferrari. I don't experience the problems you mention. While some may, as others on this thread have mentioned, the gun has some known weaknesses, that can easily be corrected for less than $15.

[SB1964]

3 tanks of gasoline 165$

4 separate online ammo orders (+ shipping) to correct an unrelated issue 193$

Range & target fees for several visits, returning home with an ever increasing frustration 68$

Listening to someone with 5X the experience of the easterbunny & spending 15$ to correct what was politely suggested in the first place...

PRICELESS!

[FiremanBob]

Boy I hate it when a guy's request for help with his rifle turns into an ego-stoked flame war. There's really no need for that.

Hardlyworking: Based on the info you provided in your first two posts in this thread, you revealed several variables that could have been affecting your rifle's ejection and they all have to do with the rifle, not the ammo. Have you re-tested it after a thorough cleaning (and avoiding gunking it up with lube)? That's the first step in solving your problem.

If you did, and are still having failures to eject, we can talk about smoothing out the inner surfaces of your receiver and upgrading your extractor. Those two improvements are the second step in the process of improving reliability. I have a couple of articles and a video about extractors on my blog at http://1022Companion.wordpress.com

To shoot higher scores higher quality, standard velocity ammunition will hit more consistently to your point of aim (aka "smaller groups"). This becomes important in the scoring range of 220-250, but until you are consistently making Rifleman scores the quality of the ammo shouldn't make that much of a difference at only 25 meters. Remember, a whole MOA difference is only 1/4" at that range.

[hardlyworking]

I honestly don't mind the flame wars. If people are passionate and get challenged, they can come back with more good info.

I'm positive that I wasn't "limp shouldering" the rifle, and I have the bruise on my collar bone to prove it, not from the recoil, from pushing forward on the sling until I could just get my shoulder behind the rifle and then relaxing into the butt. That's for prone, for standing and kneeling (sitting took WAY to long) I was using hasty sling, but I felt that I had it really locked in tight. This was a great suggestion, but I feel that we can eliminate that variable.

Polishing the inside of the receiver sounds interesting. I don't have it in front of me now, but when I pulled the bolt out to clean it, the upper inside surface did seem pretty rough.

I'm not at all opposed to upgrading the extractor even if that turns out not to be the issue. There is anecdotal evidence all over the net about the extractors, and I can't imagine people would just be looking with rose colored glasses at a $10 part.

Unfortunately 8lb jugs of A2200 became available for the first time ever at Midsouth, and I blew my allowance for the next three months, so extractors will have to wait.

Rifle was not new when purchased, and I feel like I should at this point do a full dis-assembly of the bolt and learn more how things work. Up until last weekend I had never even removed the bolt before. That said, I have fired 36gr and 40gr mini-mags with no problems, 40gr Velocitors, and 30gr aguila hyper velocity (50 round packs x10). My first experiences with the stovepipes was this 525 Fed pack, it just so happened to be in a class with timed events

I'll read through your blog FiremanBob and at a minimum take the bolt apart and clean it well, then look into polishing the receiver.

I overheard some of the instructors talking about "That SK ammunition" as being the Bee's Knees, so I'll also keep my eye out for 50-rd boxes of that I can buy a 10pk of... sometime around August, along with an extractor upgrade.

Everyone has been so very helpful, I really do appreciate it!

Boy I hate it when a guy's request for help with his rifle turns into an ego-stoked flame war. There's really no need for that.

Hardlyworking: Based on the info you provided in your first two posts in this thread, you revealed several variables that could have been affecting your rifle's ejection and they all have to do with the rifle, not the ammo. Have you re-tested it after a thorough cleaning (and avoiding gunking it up with lube)? That's the first step in solving your problem.

If you did, and are still having failures to eject, we can talk about smoothing out the inner surfaces of your receiver and upgrading your extractor. Those two improvements are the second step in the process of improving reliability. I have a couple of articles and a video about extractors on my blog at http://1022Companion.wordpress.com

To shoot higher scores higher quality, standard velocity ammunition will hit more consistently to your point of aim (aka "smaller groups"). This becomes important in the scoring range of 220-250, but until you are consistently making Rifleman scores the quality of the ammo shouldn't make that much of a difference at only 25 meters. Remember, a whole MOA difference is only 1/4" at that range.

[FiremanBob]

Yes, I hate not being able to spend the same dollar more than once. Good luck with all your shooting adventures. As KJW says, it's about "the joy of shooting."

[2761377]

allow me to ask a serious question-

to my understanding, mrrabits argument centers on this statement-


Cheap Bulk Packed versus Quality Packed Ammunition Offerings


When you compare cheap bulk pack ammunition with quality packed ammunition - what you really comparing more than anything else is the quality of the brass casing.

When a manufacturer produces brass casings on the production line - it is tested, filtered and sorted roughly as follows:


Brass Casings for Cheap Bulk Pack Product Offerings

Brass Casings for Quality Pack Product Offerings

followed shortly by this expansion-

Cheap bulk pack ammunition products typically receive the cheaper lower quality brass. Either the brass expands too much upon use, or it is not consistently within specification for clean breech insertion and removal in a semi-automatic firearm. Either way - the potential for "stickiness" in the breech is higher.

If a case experiences "stickiness" in the breech - the extraction process can be delayed long enough to cause an FTE or Stove Pipe.

again, it is my perception that this particular theory is the essence of his advice to the OP.

what I don't see in mrrabbits thread are citations or links to prove his theory. just his assertion it is true.

is there any way to prove it? one thing about the theory that doesn't pass the smell test is that manufacturers sort lower quality brass from higher quality. if there is an actual difference in the alloy- A) why would they mix it in the first place? B) what purpose does brass quality difference serve?

[FiremanBob]

Actually, I see a lot of differences in the quality of the projectile from brand to brand, and the match ammo is definitely more consistent in shape and smoother in finish.

[as_rocketman]

allow me to ask a serious question-

to my understanding, mrrabits argument centers on this statement-


Cheap Bulk Packed versus Quality Packed Ammunition Offerings [...]

what I don't see in mrrabbits thread are citations or links to prove his theory. just his assertion it is true.

is there any way to prove it? one thing about the theory that doesn't pass the smell test is that manufacturers sort lower quality brass from higher quality. if there is an actual difference in the alloy- A) why would they mix it in the first place? B) what purpose does brass quality difference serve?

It's not difficult to find evidence of this. You're welcome to find your own.

On the line at Appleseed I've seen thousands and thousands of rounds of just about every brand under the sun. But mostly cheap stuff. I also keep logs of malfunctions.

Recently I've seen some cheaper ammo (specifically Winchester bulk packs) where the "brass" is actually a shiny gold-colored veneer or wash over a dull casing, which is no doubt much higher in zinc than it ought to be. How was this discovered? The wash delaminated in the rifle...

Among casings that are legitimate, homogeneous brass, you can take measurements for yourself. Weight of fired and cleaned cases. Diameter at the case mouth. Thickness of the rim. Serious target shooters already do this and sort ammunition accordingly trying to get better consistency. The differences in quality are clear.

Why do manufacturers do this? Easy. Saves money on production costs and allows them to use a broader pool of suppliers.

--

The OP asked for recommendations of better ammo, and it was a reasonable question. I think that question has been answered, fortunately. There's nothing wrong with trying to tune up a rifle, either, but you simply may not be able to get it to run with everything. Don't believe me, go get some Thunderbolts and try to shoot through a whole brick in a weekend, as we do at Appleseed...

Appleseed, however, is not a match. Frankly a malf here and there adds to the challenge and realism of the situation. Think of it as free ball 'n dummy practice.

When I earned my patch, I was shooting CCI Blazer bulk, in the rain... I had 3 misfires and one bad FTE, all on the short stages of course. However I also had an "emergency mag" prepped and I was able to make up three of those four shots, and still made the score.

I've seen people reach Rifleman with only 35 shots on the target. Don't let it get you down. Keep plugging. (But there's no shame in shooting Mini-mags!)

ETA: "That SK Stuff" is SK Standard Plus, which I think is the same as Wolf Target. It's pretty nice. Overkill for Appleseed, since our smallest target is about 3 MOA, but good if you can get it.

[Izzy43]

allow me to ask a serious question-

to my understanding, mrrabits argument centers on this statement-


Cheap Bulk Packed versus Quality Packed Ammunition Offerings


When you compare cheap bulk pack ammunition with quality packed ammunition - what you really comparing more than anything else is the quality of the brass casing.

When a manufacturer produces brass casings on the production line - it is tested, filtered and sorted roughly as follows:


Brass Casings for Cheap Bulk Pack Product Offerings

Brass Casings for Quality Pack Product Offerings

followed shortly by this expansion-

Cheap bulk pack ammunition products typically receive the cheaper lower quality brass. Either the brass expands too much upon use, or it is not consistently within specification for clean breech insertion and removal in a semi-automatic firearm. Either way - the potential for "stickiness" in the breech is higher.

If a case experiences "stickiness" in the breech - the extraction process can be delayed long enough to cause an FTE or Stove Pipe.

again, it is my perception that this particular theory is the essence of his advice to the OP.

what I don't see in mrrabbits thread are citations or links to prove his theory. just his assertion it is true.

is there any way to prove it? one thing about the theory that doesn't pass the smell test is that manufacturers sort lower quality brass from higher quality. if there is an actual difference in the alloy- A) why would they mix it in the first place? B) what purpose does brass quality difference serve?

A valid question to be sure. One fact is that all ammunition must adhere to the SAAMI specifications, one of which is the pressure created when the ammo is fired. I would think that the brass case of all ammo must meet that criteria.

I believe that bulk ammo does not get the same quality tests that more expensive ammo does. Case in point is Lapua, Eley and other .22lr match ammo goes through a rigorous quality check during and after production. From those tests the ammo is graded for accuracy, consistent velocity, rim thickness and weight. In the case of SK (made by Lapua) the ammo that does not qualify as SK Rifle Match is packaged as SK Std + if it meets the lesser specs. If it does not it is packaged as SK Magazine. Ammo that does not meet the lowest specs is recycled. Hence the higher price for match ammo.

Another part of the production process is the machinery that is used to produce the ammo, quality of bullet material and its shape, type of powder and the process to apply the primer to the base of the case. Eley has the best rimfire primer process on the planet.

I have to believe that some bulk ammos are rejects from the production of higher quality ammo that did not meet certain specifications. Looking at some of the specs on the Federal website it can be seen that a number of ammo choices have the same ballistic information but are labeled differently.

Here is a link to the Federal Ammo Information: https://www.federalpremium.com/products/rimfire.aspx

[RawHP]

Up until last weekend I had never even removed the bolt before. That said, I have fired 36gr and 40gr mini-mags with no problems, 40gr Velocitors, and 30gr aguila hyper velocity (50 round packs x10). My first experiences with the stovepipes was this 525 Fed pack, it just so happened to be in a class with timed events

[/b]

If you've never removed to bolt and cleaned it and the receiver, then that could be your biggest problem, since a lot of grit and burnt powder residue collects over time. There are different philosophies about cleaning the bore, but I feel you should at least be cleaning the chamber as well.

Based on this information, the rifle is able to overcome friction with higher velocity rounds, so I'd do as suggested, if cleaning doesn't solve things; polish the inside of the receiver and bolt surfaces. On the bolt, pay particular attention to polishing the rear lower corner that touches the hammer when it cycles. In addition, I'd polish the hammer surface, the part to rubs against the bolt when it cycles backwards. These things cost next to nothing, but a little elbow grease.

[hardlyworking]

If you've never removed to bolt and cleaned it and the receiver, then that could be your biggest problem, since a lot of grit and burnt powder residue collects over time. There are different philosophies about cleaning the bore, but I feel you should at least be cleaning the chamber as well.

Based on this information, the rifle is able to overcome friction with higher velocity rounds, so I'd do as suggested, if cleaning doesn't solve things; polish the inside of the receiver and bolt surfaces. On the bolt, pay particular attention to polishing the rear lower corner that touches the hammer when it cycles. In addition, I'd polish the hammer surface, the part to rubs against the bolt when it cycles backwards. These things cost next to nothing, but a little elbow grease.

I read all of FiremanBob's 10/22 blog posts, and while the work suggested by Que sounds awesome, I can't do it at this time.

What I DID do, was get some gun oil and 220 wet/dry sand paper and do a rough polish on the inside of the receiver and while I know its not 1000/2000 grit mirror smooth, its a hell of a lot better than before.

Next, I did an extractor tune up following his directions, again, oil on a triangle file and sharpened up that edge. While I was in there, I scrubbed out the extractor "tunnel" and wiped down the spring and plunger.

Next, I punched out the roll pin for the firing pin, and good gravy was that thing rough! Firing pin into the vice, and chucked up a fine grinding stone in the drill and smoothed out all the crunchy edges, then again with the 220 grit paper.

Put it all back together, loaded 40 rounds in 4 magazines and with the rifle on safe, cycled all 40 by hand, and they landed in a nice little pile. Its possible I took too much metal off the extractor... it was WAY softer than I was expecting so I really wanted to check this as best as I could without firing.

For now, every single part is clean as a whistle, *lightly* lubed in the places my Appleseed coach suggested, and only those places.

I'm feeling some pride of ownership again, and I have several paths forward and a lot of dry trigger practice to do until next time!