Best Optic for Front Sight Practical Rifle Course...

[tacticalcity]

I am looking for advice from people who have taken the Front Sight 4-Day Practical Rifle Course.

This is not a which do you like better question. This is which optic will serve me best during this specific course.

I have yet to take the course, so I am hoping for first hand experiences from students who have taken the course and the rational behind which optic they think works best during the many course specific drills at various distances.

I am a HUGE fan of the Trijicon ACOG TA31F. I've owned it before and really enjoyed it. But I have not put it through the paces of the Front Sight 4-Day Practical Rifle Course and am not sure if the 4x Magnification would be a plus or liability at the distances involved. I am not even sure what those distances would be and how much time is spent at each distance.

Of the non-magnified optics I am a fan of the EoTech Red Dot Sights since I carry them and get great pricing on them.

Price differences between the two are not a factor for me. If the ACOG will perform better during that course I am all for spending the extra money on it.

Oh, almost forgot...my rifle is a CMMG M4 Carbine chambered in 5.56mm.

I know both optics will "work". I am looking to know which one will give me a leg-up. Just like using a Glock (or cocked and locked 1911) will give you a leg-up in the 4-Day Handgun Course because their easy to master triggers. I am looking for the inside scoop before I spent my money and waste a trip using the wrong equipment.

UPDATE: Final choice ended up being an Aimpoint Comp ML3 in 2 MOA. Not sure if it is the "best" or that there even is such a thing, but that is what I went with. Got the American Defense QD High Mount.

[bigmike82]

If you have good pricing on the Eotech stuff and like it, why don't you get an Eotech setup with the magnifier and a quick release mount? That way, you should be able to switch back and forth based on the distance you're shooting at?

I don't have any experience with the course itself, unfortunately, but if you can get the demo-unit pricing from Eotech, the magnifier and optic setup should be the way to go.

[SuperSet]

I've been to a few carbine courses already but not Front Sight so I can't speak to that specific course. Just from looking at their curriculum, they are shooting from 3 yards out to 400 yards, which is similar to what I saw at Scott Reitz's class, except you go out to 500 yards. A red dot + magnifier or variable scope generally performs best since you do a majority of your shooting at close range <200 yards with some occasional long distance in there. A fixed power scope is doable at close range but it takes work.
Sorry I couldn't speak to that course specifically but hope that helps.

[jmf_tracy]

ACOG. as a matter of fact i asked one of the instructors which optic i should use for the rifle course and he told me ACOG.
i have taken the 4 day rifle course with the TA31DOC ACOG and it worked great. i would suggest the TA31DOC and sight the DOC optic at 15-25 yards, although you would be fine with just the ACOG. when i took the course i did not have my DOC optic sighted in and i did not use it, although i would have liked to. so you would be fine with just an ACOG, but you would be better with a DOC optic mounted on the ACOG. they have a few models, but i am partial to the TA31DOC.
i would suggest using the doc optic from 0-25 yards and use the ACOG from anything past 25 out to 400 yards as they will do in the course. the ACOG has a BDC for M855 ammo, but frontsight won't let you shoot that ammo out of fear of damage to their steel targets. however M193 trajectory is close enough to M855 and that is what i used and it was fine and shots were all on target at all distances. so i would suggest using real M193 (don't get centurion .223 M193) for the course to use with your BDC in your ACOG.
BTW, they have this optic brand new on ebay for $1399. if you want it even cheaper then i have a hookup for you. call dmitri at optics planet and ask him to beat that $1399 price on ebay and he will. i scored some optics from him recently and specifically asked him about that optic and price and he said he would beat it. here is his number: 800-504-5897 ext 374
hth.

[tacticalcity]

I get dealer pricing well below the eBay price...but I appriciate your lookin' out. Getting a good deal is always nice. I can also get the ACOG first, and add a red dot or Doc sight afterwards as all those parts are available through a distributor of mine. They are just not always in stock at the same time.

I've tried the EoTech + Magnifier before. I don't know, it's pretty clunky. Lots of weight on the rifle and it feels pretty awkward. Plus you're still dependent on batteries 100% of the time. I also found I was haveing to ditch the rear sight which with a battery powered optic I am not crazy about. I just know I'm gonna run out of power just as I am taking incoming...kidding of course. Paper targets don't shoot back.

I've never tried the Red Dot or DOC mounted ontop of the ACOG. It looks like it might feel a tad clunky. But I guess I can give it a shot.

I've tried the NSN, it has a really thin reticle...and that yellow is hard to see. I liked everything else about it. When I switched the the TA31F I fell in love! But I've never put it through real life paces. So I wanted to check. Actually owned a few over the years. Sold the last one right off my rifle at the range. Guy really wanted it bad. Figured what the heck.

Yes. I complain a lot. I'm picky. There just is no ideal solution yet. It has yet to be invented. A red dot, without batteries, that instantly magnifies based on the focus of your eye related to distance of the target in zero seconds flat is not out there. Man will those days be cool or what?

[tacticalcity]

Oh, and I truly appriciate the answers guys.

[jmf_tracy]

i really like the reticle on the TA31DOC, it is red illuminated crosshair and then it has black hash marks for the BDC at 200-600. for me i like it better than a chevron, doughnut, triangle, etc. also it has the dual illumination which i like. in bright sun you do need to tape off a portion of the fiber optic because it is too bright.

[tacticalcity]

Your eyes must be better than mine.

So after all that, I bought the EoTech 512.

Probably won't be the sight I take to the class. I don't plan on taking that particular class until summer. And the EoTech will "complete the build" for the time being.

I am planning on building an AR pistol soon. When I do I will move the EoTech and LMT fixed rear sight over to it. For now, it helps me get one more project off my list.

Thanks for the advice guys.

My next 2 classes will be handgun classes. Taking the Front Sight 4-Day Defensive Handgun course as a refesher this coming January (also taking that one so my cousin will be in the same class). Then I will have to hunt for an Advanced Tactical Handgun Course somewhere because Front Sight won't be offering one again until May. Hopefully another school will honor Front Sight's certification of my skillset and start off where they left off. Then I plan on taking a Practical Rifle Course followed up by an advanced course somewhere.

Really gonna be burning some reward points on my credit card.

UPDATE: Changed my mind and went with the Aimpoint as stated in first post.

[SuperSet]

You're correct in that they are all compromises. The ACOG + red dot seems ideal but in practice, it kinda sucks. Bore height is way too high to use the red dot, IMHO.
Give the variables a chance too, specifically the TR24.

[cal3gunner]

,,,

[joelogic]

I took the 4 day class with an Eotech. I was extremely fast at the majority of the shooting. Most of the shooting is at 15yds and 25yds. For part of the skills test you have to place shoots centermass from 3 position (I think at 200 you could use the same position but you had to drop to prone each time) at 100 and 200 yds. Of course all shoots are timed. 100yds no problem, 200 was a bit of a struggle. You make up time in your technique of dropping to prone and then take your time getting the sight picture. The 3 and 7 yds shots the Eotech rules. I bought a magnifier for the next time I take the class. PM me if you have any of questions.

[tacticalcity]

As fat as I am these days I might need a lot of time getting prone. ;-)

[randy]

+1 to cal3gunner.

The doctor on an ACOG is lame and defeats the advantage of a red dot.

Look at some 3 gun videos or look at some web sites geared for 3 gun.

With a fixed power optic run iron sites off to the side so you cant your gun for close stuff 35 yards or closer and roll back to the scope for longer shots.

Look to www.brianenos.com for some answers.

[tacticalcity]

I've been looking at the Magpul Dynamics course as a possible alternative to the Front Sight Course, since it is a little closer to home. Seems like all those guys used red dot sights.

The EoTech 512 I ordered had a discolored case. So I returned it and am getting an Aimpoint Comp ML3 2MOA Sight and an American Defense QD High Mount instead. It's more money, but longer battery life. So I figured I'd try it out.

My next build or build after that I'll do the Seal Recon Style thing with the long extended handguards and use the Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x? scope on it. This upper has a front sight post. Not that it matters all that much, but I'd rather use the variable scope on a build like that than on this particular upper.

Thanks for all the advice guys.

[esskay]

I've been looking at the Magpul Dynamics course as a possible alternative to the Front Sight Course, since it is a little closer to home. Seems like all those guys used red dot sights.

The EoTech 512 I ordered had a discolored case. So I returned it and am getting an Aimpoint Comp ML3 2MOA Sight and an American Defense QD High Mount instead. It's more money, but longer battery life. So I figured I'd try it out.

My next build or build after that I'll do the Seal Recon Style thing with the long extended handguards and use the Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x? scope on it. This upper has a front sight post. Not that it matters all that much, but I'd rather use the variable scope on a build like that than on this particular upper.

Thanks for all the advice guys.

I have not trained at Front Sight, but I'd go for the Magpul class!