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  • #16
    sb_pete
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2008
    • 1039

    Originally posted by jkchan83
    I am looking for 2 different lights in 2 different applications: 1 will be mounted to the forearm of a HD shotgun. From what I can tell, this would call for a floodlight. As you said, I would like to be able to light up an entire wall or room. The 2nd light will be mounted on a general-purpose, SHTF, bug-out, bug-in AR-15. From above, this gun would need a combination of flood and throw.
    HD shotgun you definitely want a very floody light. Something with a textured reflector. You do not want a smooth reflector or optic, even the SF TIR. The TIR does a great job of allowing useful side spill while making a light saber like beam in the middle, but IMHO, it is not nearly floody enough for a dedicated HD weaponlight.

    For the GP AR-15, meh, more personal preference really. You don't wan't a total floodlight, you don't want a total throw light (like a Dereelight DBSor HID based light, for example), you want a mix. There are many many shades of this and it comes down to personal preference. You are basically looking for something like a "light orange peel" reflector, or an Olight type hybrid reflector, or the SureFire TIR (which is a great compromise optic).

    Originally posted by jkchan83
    For the HD light, I agree that 30-40 minutes is plenty of time. For the general-purpose light, I would like to have a longer run-time, say a target of 10 hours on one set of batteries (for the longest night). Does this sound reasonable? Since I want 10 hours of battery life, I assume that I am looking at LED flashlights. Correct?
    Well, marketing has a lot of crud in it. the "useful light" moniker given to all those long run times on flashlights (including SF) basically means enough to read a map with. It ain't bright.
    If you want 10 hrs of light off one set of batteries, yes, you definitely need an LED light. Further, you are going to need either a multiple output light, or a generally low output light. For instance, 3D maglights with the MAGLED last for.... eternity, but they are big, heavy and low output (the big reflector helps to get a good beam out of them - eg candlepower - but they have low overall output - lumens). Oddly, that really long 10 hr output is easiest to get with rechargeable lights using 18650 Li-Ion cells. But again, they have the self-discharge problems that are not compatible with your needs

    Realistically, high output leds don't get much better runtime than incandescent bulbs. It is better runtime, but it is on the order of tens of percent for the high output stuff. The big advantage of led is in the ability to have multi outputs, strobes, etc. The big disadvantage is color rendition.

    Originally posted by jkchan83
    The HD light just needs to work. I completely agree with your earlier post that a "forward clicky" light is the best for both of these lights. I am going to avoid rechargeables because I don't fit into the profile of use that you laid out. I need shelf life and reliability for when I don't have access to central mains for recharging.
    In that case, I would avoid two stage or multi-output lights for the HD light. keep it a KISS, well built, high output light. A quick note on rechargeables: generally speaking if you are using incandescent lights and cr123 sized batteries, you need to choose to use one or the other. With leds on the other hand this is not the case. You are free to use rechargeables when running drills or whatever and keep fresh primaries in it when the gun is standing by. Incandescent bulbs are designed for one voltage setting, leds can often use many input voltages and thus can often use both types of battery, or even more types. The Fenix TK11 and Olight M20 for instance can use 1 3.7V 18650 cell, 2 3V cr123 primary cells, or 2x3.7V rechargeable cr123 cells.



    Originally posted by jkchan83
    This is a great place to differentiate between the HD and general purpose lights. For the HD light, the smaller LED, 100+ lumen light sounds like a winner. However, will there be any issues with a smaller light mounted on a shotgun? I worry about barrel shadow and handling the heavy recoil from a 12 ga.
    For the AR, I like the length of the L4/E2D/6P (since they are all about the same size). It allows me to mount the light forward of my vertical grip and just in range of my thumb while still minimizing the barrel shadow.
    Well to be perfectly honest, I can't think of any small 1 cell lights I would really recommend for that use. The SureFires cost to much and have too low an output, the Pelicans have too low an output, same goes for the streamlights. The Nightcore lights are great, but they have had switch issues in the past. While they make great carry lights, the switch just isn;t beefy enough for me to recommend mounting on a 12GA. Most of the other ones are reverse clicky or also use questionable switches. For a 12GA in particular, you really want a light that is double-sprung (battery held by springs at both side so that spring compression under recoil doesn't break contact), and which has an overbuilt heavy duty switch. A reverse clicky switch is a simple device, they basically work about 10k-15k times and die, but they cost like two cents to make. A forward clicky is a much more mechanical affair and for mounting on something with heavy recoil, you want a top notch one. Pelican and SureFire make these. Streamlight, Inova, the Fenix TK10/11, and the rest of the tac-light usual suspects do as well.

    As for LED on the HD shotgun, it would not be my first choice. I know this goes a bit against the popular choice these days, but as you don't need the extra runtime or multiple outputs, I would prefer to have the (much) better color rendition and beam pattern of a quality incan. Some may tell you that incan bulbs blow and leds last forever. This is BS, maybe under lab conditions, but in managing a valet parking company I have a trunk full of loaner lights that I give to employees for jobs. I have seen many leds get knocked off their dies and go dead by falls onto concrete or asphalt. LED dies are no less shock susceptible than quality incan bulbs like a P60/D26 enclosure in my experience. LED's can also overheat and melt their own soldering joints. Surefire led heads are much less susceptible to this than cheaper brands and the Malkoff devices come with massive heatsinks that make it even less likely, but it still happens. This is because the wasted energy from leds (what's left of that 80% or 90% efficiency claim in the marketing blurb) turns back on itself and heats the die the led is mounted on much like a computer cpu heats itself up. Incan bulbs reflect their wasted energy out the front in the form of IR energy (another reason they remain popular with the .mil crowd who use IR filters with NVGs/NODs).

    Anyways, a simple reliable light like an SF 6P or Pelican M6 running a high output bulb like the Lumens Factory EO6 or EO9 would be my first choice. If you were to run a 2xCR123 light on primaries you would want the EO6 (200lumens). the EO9 requires either 3xcr123 or 2xrcr123. You could run an EO9 with three CR123 primaries in an SF 9P or G3. For some reason the bulb doesn't fit well in the Pelican M3, it does in the M6 though.
    Last edited by sb_pete; 03-04-2009, 3:35 PM.

    Comment

    • #17
      sb_pete
      Senior Member
      • Feb 2008
      • 1039

      Originally posted by jkchan83
      Does your G2LED have the forward-clicky switch or does it have the twisty switch?
      Surefire offers both options. Most of the led ones I have seen had a forward clicky. Most of the incan ones had a twist/momentary.

      Originally posted by jkchan83
      I have looked at some of the lights that you posted. After reading the marketing spiel, I still have some questions:
      -Pelican M6LED: The 2390 looks very nice for HD light. Does it come with a forward-clicky switch? The 2330 meets my run-time for the GP light, but there is no information about the pattern.
      Yes, the Pelican M6 lights all come with a forward clicky switch. If you couldn't tell before, I really like these lights. I have disassembled many lights including 6P's, G2's, L1's, Maglites, Fenix's, Nightcores,Olights, Jetbeams, Liteflux's, etc. The Pelican M3 and M6 switch is the beefiest, heaviest duty light switch I have ever seen. It is a nice little piece of engineering.
      The model has been around a long time just like the SF P6, here is an old review of the light itself.


      The M6 is also compatible with all SF 6P/G2 bulbs and led kits. It is on the P60/D26 pattern that Surefire started and which is a common std across the industry for 2xcr123 size lights. I have never played with the M6 led, I don't know which led Pelican is using or how bright it is. I am sure of this though: the Pelican led will be very reliable, but there are certainly brighter led conversions out there on the P60 pattern.

      Here are the many offered by Malkoff (the gold std).
      The BOG model is also highly rated.
      There are also many cheap drop-in leds from DealExtreme and KaiDomain in Hong Kong.

      If you go the Incan route, pick up a Lumens Factory bulb, and a UCL glass lens/window from flashlightlens.com . Here is the spec sheet for the necessary size lens


      Originally posted by jkchan83
      -Fenix TK-10: I like the idea of 2-mode operation, but is it really useful? I would leave it on "turbo mode" for the HD light. I also like the 200 meter throw, but what mode would this be in? Lastly, does this come with a forward-clicky switch? The description says "Tactical tailcap switch with momentary-on function." Does this mean Twisty with momentary like on almost every Surefire?
      Well, in short, the answer to that is - it depends

      - 2-mode operation is useful in general. On a weapons light it is really only useful if one mode is "F*&K-all bright, batteries be damned" and the other one is tac-light bright but with long runtime. The TK10/11 series has that so yes it is useful. On the other hand, those sub 10 lumen modes are intended to navigate a trail on a moonless night or read a map with. They will not light up a room. They are useful, but more so on a handheld light than on a weapons light.
      - The Fenix TK10/11 series have forward clicky switches.

      Here are some reviews:
      - Lightreviews.com on TK10
      - Lightreviews.com on the TK11
      - CPF Thread on what the difference between the TK11 and TK10 is
      - CPF Thread on new product TK11
      - CPF Thread comparing the TK11 to the Pelican 7060 LAPD light

      ____

      Originally posted by jkchan83
      Have you tried/looked at the Olight M20? It has a really low setting, but a usable 90 lumen medium setting that seems to meet what you describe:
      Low: 7 lm (150hrs), Med: 90 lm (12hrs), Hi 250 lm (~3hrs)
      - Here's a LightReviews.com review on the Olight M20
      - Here's a CPF review of the Olight M20
      - Here's one of another light, the Jetbeam JetIIIM (Military)


      Originally posted by jkchan83
      I think that I am down to 4 choices for the 2 flashlights: Surefire 6PLED, Pelican M6LED, Fenix TK-10, and Olight M20. Given my above needs, what would you recommend?
      - I would recommend either a SF 6P, G2 or Pelican M6 for the shotgun. Which of them is personal preference as they all take the same batteries and bulbs. I lean towards the Pelican, but it should be noted that while the Pelican takes all the same bulbs, it won't necessarily take the same tailcaps or pressure switches should you go that route down the line. I like the light better, but the SF is a more common product with more aftermarket support, even if alot of that aftermarket support is interchangeable with the Pelican, not all of it will be.

      - For the AR, I would go with either the TK10 or the Olight M20.
      Why not TK11? Well, since you are going to be running CR123's, they might rattle around in the TK11 which has a 18650 size tube and no liner for the cr123s (18650 cells are 18mm in dia, cr123's are 16mm in dia). The TK10 has a cr123 size tube and the M20 comes with a liner. On the other hand the TK11 is being offered with a newer brighter led (Cree R2 vs Cree Q5). I wouldn't want rattling in a weapons light, but a rolled up piece of paper could take care of it just as easily.

      I tend to think the Olight switching system is a bit better for the application. Here's why. The Fenix system relies on tight head/bezel = high (turbo), loose head/bezel = low. This is great but you could know the head and end up with high or low inadvertently. The Olight system is the same one they use across their line. I should say that I do not own either a Fenix TK10/11 or an Olight M20, but I have handled the Fenix T1 (predecessor to the TK10/11) and I own other Fenix and Olight lights that have the same operating system. The "loosen/tighten system of the Olight is both very reliable and very deliberate. You can't do it on accident, but it is very easy to do. That said, the Olight has 4 modes, that might be annoying to you or it might not be KISS enough for you. I think they are exactly the four modes you need, but you will have to remember to return to high mode before turning the light off or else remember what mode you are in. This is a problem for some. My own personal EDC pocket light is that way and it eventually becomes muscle memory to return the light to the high setting (or whatever you prefer) before turning the light off. But this is the kind of thing that comes down to personal preference.

      Originally posted by jkchan83
      I want to thank you again for all of the time that you are putting into this.
      LOL, no worries bro, it just happens that work has been canceled the last two days in a row and it's raining outside so hey, I got some time

      Hope that all helped,
      -Pete
      Last edited by sb_pete; 03-04-2009, 3:33 PM.

      Comment

      • #18
        bobfried
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2005
        • 1448

        I'm also a bit of a CPF'er myself having owned most of the lights being discussed here.

        One thing to get out of the way:

        Lumen - This is pure BS from most of the makers out there, no one has a consistent way of measuring anything since any one thing or method will throw everything out of whack. Not to mention the sheer variable from even a single batch of LED's will throw any rating by any manufacturer out the window. This is where SF rules the roots since they measure actual lumen output out the front (ie what you actually see) versus at the diode. When talking about output, the first thing that get's thrown against SF is the lumen output; the exact opposite should be the case. I've owned a few light from reputable makers with claim output double what SF advertise and they were worse than the SF. Just know that lumen in the world of flashlight is basically arbitrary and should not be relied much except from a consistent tester (such as CPF) with a known method of testing that is consistent.

        General Purpose:

        I'll begun the discussion dealing with general purpose lights which are much more fun to play with. I've been experimenting with finding the best mix of characteristics to have in a general purpose light. Let's clear out the way and say that I only buy LED's now, incandescent have a place, just not in my collection. I prefer a Cree based diode simply because it's the cheapest whilst outputting a decent amount of light. I also prefer an OP (Orange Peeled) reflector as it smoothen the light output. Whist a smooth reflector will give you more throw it will also create more artifacts and artifacts are your enemy. I also prefer a forward clicky tail cap since it offers the greatest utility. I also like a multi-mode light that allows more flexibility on how it is used. Rechargeable are my batteries of choice for daily, general purpose lights since I always keep 2 freshly charged at all times ready to pop in. Since you will be using a light more frequently and for longer durations, it's much cheaper on the wallet in the end to use rechargeable. I like lights that uses 18650's (2 CR123) as they offer good balance of voltage versus longevity.

        SHTF:

        This is a hard one and is one area where I have been having the most difficulty. I know it will be an LED based light since they are more durable, give higher output and run longer than incandescent. Button wise I am torn between a nice forward clicky and a simple twisty as I know the twisty will be far more durable in the end than a clicky can be. Specifically the basic one such as those that come on basic SF lights. They literally have nothing to break since everything is purely mechanical. Power wise I have to break the mold and go with AA, specifically a light that uses 2 AA's. A light that uses readily salvageable batteries is my utmost priority and AA is the choice for all SHTF scenarios.

        A new contender and category changer will be the Surefire Titan T1A when they come down a bit in price. Though it only has a single AA, an infinitely variable twisty makes it the ideal light for SHTF as it will work essentially in any situation. The Nitecore, Fenix and a few other brands are all equally nice in this category.

        Weapon Light:

        The first thing we need to discuss is throw versus flood. This is best demonstrated when using an X300 versus the E2LED/L4. The X300 has a wide spot and lots of spill, it was designed and should be used for everything within 15 yards. The other end is the KX2C powered lights which has a good amount of throw built into them. These are great for rifles and any weapons that needs a bit more reach. So choose your light depending on the weapon it is intended and the application you need it for.

        The second thing is the method of activation. A forward clicky is the only choice IMO and everything else is a compromise. A twisty (momentary) such as the basic G2's are great but not perfect if you ever need to quickly lock the light on. Tape switches are cool to play with but I have had a few fail on me. Your just introducing multiple points of failure with a tape switch beside the mounting and accidental discharge issues. Above all, it's just not natural to squeeze or press on a tape switch and that fine motor skill might be loss if you get into some serious trouble. The human factor makes forward clicky the only real viable choice for your primary light source on a rifle. Tape switches and toggles are fine for secondary light and designators, but the primary should be a forward clicky.

        The third thing has to do with the ever raging debate of rechargeable batteries. My vote goes to regular non-rechargeable, I say that with the caveat of everyone knowing that 90%+ of my lights are run on rechargeable. The reason I go with regular batteries has to do with being able to eliminate the least common denominator. having a bunch of rechargeable is great, but that create confusion about what is charged or not, how old the cells are and exactly how much life is left in each cell. I use regular batteries in all my weapon lights because I know that they are always fresh and uniform, something I can't say for my fleet of rechargeable batteries. Both types are equally durable IMO, but this has more to do with eliminating failure points than anything else. In the case of batteries, the failure point is human, as in I cannot keep track of battery quality so I use brand new ones every time to eliminate this problem.

        The fourth item is multi stage and modes versus single mode. The least common variable and elimination of failure points again come into play. The short answer is: KISS. A weapon light should be single mode and single mode only, it should not have multiple levels, strobes or any other fancy accoutrement's. Repeatability is vital in any weapon system and having something with multiple settings will only confuse and irritate the operator. I could completely pass over the fact that multi-mode lights are not as durable since they have more points to induce failure. But that is not the real problem, the real problem is again, the human. It's easy to leave a light in the wrong mode, to forget that it's on strobing etc etc, in a perfect world we would know exactly what mode the light is on.

        Note that 3 out of four items discussed above had more to do with human fallacies than the items themselves. Personally, whenever I deal with anything that might cost or save my life, however remote the possibility, I go with the rule of least common denominator. Do what is simplest for YOU, the ever failing, forgetting, mistaking HUMAN. No amount of technology or safeguards will make up for your mistake and in choosing anything that has your life in the balance you need to choose the choice that nullifies the greatest problem: YOU.

        Comment

        • #19
          sb_pete
          Senior Member
          • Feb 2008
          • 1039

          Originally posted by bobfried
          I'm also a bit of a CPF'er myself having owned most of the lights being discussed here.

          One thing to get out of the way:

          Lumen - This is pure BS from most of the makers out there, no one has a consistent way of measuring anything since any one thing or method will throw everything out of whack. Not to mention the sheer variable from even a single batch of LED's will throw any rating by any manufacturer out the window. This is where SF rules the roots since they measure actual lumen output out the front (ie what you actually see) versus at the diode. When talking about output, the first thing that get's thrown against SF is the lumen output; the exact opposite should be the case. I've owned a few light from reputable makers with claim output double what SF advertise and they were worse than the SF. Just know that lumen in the world of flashlight is basically arbitrary and should not be relied much except from a consistent tester (such as CPF) with a known method of testing that is consistent.
          While what you're saying is absolutely true, there is one big problem with SF light ratings. By rating OTF lumens, they are dependent on their specific testing methodology. SF measures average OTF lumens at the 50% point in the battery discharge cycle using their own lightbox system. Others may or may not be able to replicate this. It is much simpler and more consistent to measure the average output of a given bin of leds running on x current than it is to measure actual OTF lumens. They also do not release the specific led models they are using so it makes it hard to compare with other manufacturers.

          In the end, none of the methodologies are even close to ideal. What matters is their ability to be used as a point of comparison. SF lumens are not comparable with those of any other manufacturer. Certainly we all know that compared to the Chinese makers their ratings will seem underrated compared to their output. Generally, you can add a few lumens to surefire ratings to account for fresh batteries, then multiply the Chinese ratings by 60-70% to account for optical losses and get a decent comparison.

          Bottom line is that even that doesn't cut it, and if you want a good comparison, go to the CPF reviews which will look at a broader picture including beam pattern, artifacts, and color rendition.


          Originally posted by bobfried
          General Purpose:
          I'll begun the discussion dealing with general purpose lights which are much more fun to play with. I've been experimenting with finding the best mix of characteristics to have in a general purpose light. Let's clear out the way and say that I only buy LED's now, incandescent have a place, just not in my collection. I prefer a Cree based diode simply because it's the cheapest whilst outputting a decent amount of light. I also prefer an OP (Orange Peeled) reflector as it smoothen the light output. Whist a smooth reflector will give you more throw it will also create more artifacts and artifacts are your enemy
          I'm with you that the GP lights are the most fun to play with. I basically have gone over to having all pocket lights, one cell lights, and handgun lights as LED.
          I also use leds in long lasting emergency lights. I have quite a few led mag lites with diffusers and small stanley tripod lights. The emergency lights in my car are also E2 lithium AA powered led lights.

          I also, oddly enough, really like cold cathode lighting for book lights and long use outdoor lanterns.

          But to really light up the night, you can't beat incan. My favorite lights are my Mag85, ROP mags and my Lumensfactory EO9 equipped Pelican M6. The Mag85 is just a useful light. it is 3D maglight sized, rechargeable, runs for 40minutes on a charge, and is much brighter than the lowbeams on my car.

          I also use LOP and MOP reflectors in just about everything. I have and enjoy using SMO reflectors to test out powerful incan lights, they are just not as useful in everyday (everynight?) tasks.

          Originally posted by bobfried
          I also prefer a forward clicky tail cap since it offers the greatest utility. I also like a multi-mode light that allows more flexibility on how it is used. Rechargeable are my batteries of choice for daily, general purpose lights since I always keep 2 freshly charged at all times ready to pop in. Since you will be using a light more frequently and for longer durations, it's much cheaper on the wallet in the end to use rechargeable. I like lights that uses 18650's (2 CR123) as they offer good balance of voltage versus longevity.
          I prefer forward clicky switches for just about everything but pocket lights. I prefer reverse clicky or PD systems for pocket lights as they are equally quick to pull out and use (unlike twisties), but do not have the unfortunate tendency to turn on in my pocket like forward clickies do.

          I also keep primaries in all of my emergency lights and use rechargeables in my daily work lights.


          Originally posted by bobfried
          SHTF:
          This is a hard one and is one area where I have been having the most difficulty. I know it will be an LED based light since they are more durable, give higher output and run longer than incandescent. Button wise I am torn between a nice forward clicky and a simple twisty as I know the twisty will be far more durable in the end than a clicky can be. Specifically the basic one such as those that come on basic SF lights. They literally have nothing to break since everything is purely mechanical. Power wise I have to break the mold and go with AA, specifically a light that uses 2 AA's. A light that uses readily salvageable batteries is my utmost priority and AA is the choice for all SHTF scenarios.

          A new contender and category changer will be the Surefire Titan T1A when they come down a bit in price. Though it only has a single AA, an infinitely variable twisty makes it the ideal light for SHTF as it will work essentially in any situation. The Nitecore, Fenix and a few other brands are all equally nice in this category.
          Personally, I've seen way too many led lights break after falls from waist height onto concrete and asphalt to believe the spiel about their durability. They are durable and they certainly have a MUCH MUCH longer life cycle than incans, but they are, practically speaking, no less shock susceptible to my mind.

          I agree with you 100% about leds as the first choice for SHTF lights. To me, I think a nice little twisty like the Fenix EO1 is great to throw in a bag and forget as it will give you usable light off of a crappy little AAA forever. but for a tactical type light, I think the best mix is a forward clicky that can be disassembled completely like the Pelican switches. Should they break (unlikely) they can be taken apart and fixed, or , in a pinch hotwired to make into a twist/momentary switch.

          Comment

          • #20
            sb_pete
            Senior Member
            • Feb 2008
            • 1039

            Originally posted by bobfried
            Weapon Light:

            The first thing we need to discuss is throw versus flood. This is best demonstrated when using an X300 versus the E2LED/L4. The X300 has a wide spot and lots of spill, it was designed and should be used for everything within 15 yards. The other end is the KX2C powered lights which has a good amount of throw built into them. These are great for rifles and any weapons that needs a bit more reach. So choose your light depending on the weapon it is intended and the application you need it for.

            The second thing is the method of activation. A forward clicky is the only choice IMO and everything else is a compromise. A twisty (momentary) such as the basic G2's are great but not perfect if you ever need to quickly lock the light on. Tape switches are cool to play with but I have had a few fail on me. Your just introducing multiple points of failure with a tape switch beside the mounting and accidental discharge issues. Above all, it's just not natural to squeeze or press on a tape switch and that fine motor skill might be loss if you get into some serious trouble. The human factor makes forward clicky the only real viable choice for your primary light source on a rifle. Tape switches and toggles are fine for secondary light and designators, but the primary should be a forward clicky.

            The third thing has to do with the ever raging debate of rechargeable batteries. My vote goes to regular non-rechargeable, I say that with the caveat of everyone knowing that 90%+ of my lights are run on rechargeable. The reason I go with regular batteries has to do with being able to eliminate the least common denominator. having a bunch of rechargeable is great, but that create confusion about what is charged or not, how old the cells are and exactly how much life is left in each cell. I use regular batteries in all my weapon lights because I know that they are always fresh and uniform, something I can't say for my fleet of rechargeable batteries. Both types are equally durable IMO, but this has more to do with eliminating failure points than anything else. In the case of batteries, the failure point is human, as in I cannot keep track of battery quality so I use brand new ones every time to eliminate this problem.

            The fourth item is multi stage and modes versus single mode. The least common variable and elimination of failure points again come into play. The short answer is: KISS. A weapon light should be single mode and single mode only, it should not have multiple levels, strobes or any other fancy accoutrement's. Repeatability is vital in any weapon system and having something with multiple settings will only confuse and irritate the operator. I could completely pass over the fact that multi-mode lights are not as durable since they have more points to induce failure. But that is not the real problem, the real problem is again, the human. It's easy to leave a light in the wrong mode, to forget that it's on strobing etc etc, in a perfect world we would know exactly what mode the light is on.

            Note that 3 out of four items discussed above had more to do with human fallacies than the items themselves. Personally, whenever I deal with anything that might cost or save my life, however remote the possibility, I go with the rule of least common denominator. Do what is simplest for YOU, the ever failing, forgetting, mistaking HUMAN. No amount of technology or safeguards will make up for your mistake and in choosing anything that has your life in the balance you need to choose the choice that nullifies the greatest problem: YOU.
            I tend to agree with everything you are saying about weapons light (especially about forward clickies and tape switches etc.) with two caveats:
            1. With rechargeable batteries, as I said before, on a daily use light, I can see a reason for rechargeables. For an HD light, no, but if I were .mil going out on patrol alot, I could see a use for something like the TK11 or M20 type light where you have a topped up 18650 (with more capacity than 2xcr123 primaries) everytime you go out. I would have primaries as replacement batteries, but changing out the battery every duty day or patrol or whatever, a rechargeable option makes sense to me. Unless you aren't paying for the batteries and are able to throw out half used batteries every time, this is more consistent and reliable to me. For most applications, primaries are what you want, but I would not dismiss rechargeables out of hand as there are some applications where the use of both types makes sense to me.

            2. I can see a use for multi-output lights like the TK10/11 where the "low" mode is still bright enough for tactical use, but allows for longer battery life. This is especially true with regulated output led lights which don't dim over time but retain full brightness until they die. Switching to a lower but still useful mode is better than suddenly having to replace batteries. Something like the Olight M20, with the strobe and low low mode make more sense for a handheld light. But since they require very conscious operation to turn on, I could see a use for them as long as you were in the unconscious habit of switching back to full brightness after every (EVERY) time you used them. Still, this is a compromise. It might be a useful one, but it could also be a dangerous one. If you forgot and found yourself turning on 7 lumens when you needed either 90lumens or 250lumens, you could be in serious trouble. That said, the fact that the Olight system is less prone to accidental switching is a plus to me when compared to the Fenix system. It is even more so when compared to the tap tap type systems of most Surefire two stage systems (excepting the L1/Kroma switch). I have mixed feelings about this. Ultimately it is a personal choice for the operator.

            -Pete

            Comment

            • #21
              jkchan83
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 292

              Originally posted by sb_pete
              If you go the Incan route, pick up a Lumens Factory bulb, and a UCL glass lens/window from flashlightlens.com . Here is the spec sheet for the necessary size lens
              Okay, one flashlight down: I have decided to go with an incan Pelican M6 for the HD shotgun. I will also pick up the Lumens Factory EO-6 and the UCL glass lens. Should I add the Light Diffusion Film to the lens? It claims to smooth out the beam for better flood performance, which is what I am going for in this light. Opinions, please.

              I am still looking at my options for the AR-15, but I will post when I make up my mind.
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              • #22
                sb_pete
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2008
                • 1039

                You can try buying both lenses since they are cheap and seeing which you prefer. I tried the LDF, it makes for a very smooth, very floody beam pattern. In that respect it is great. Unfortunately it also noticeably reduces light output, so I stick to a clear lens/window.

                I do not have an EO6, but the EO9 already uses an MOP reflector and the tip of the bulb itself is textured (acid-etched) so it has a very smooth beam to begin with. The EO6 is probably similar.
                -Pete

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                • #23
                  sb_pete
                  Senior Member
                  • Feb 2008
                  • 1039

                  Small update. Fenix just released a tape switch / pressure pad tailcap for the TK10/11 series. If you like that sort of thing, then that would definitely set it apart from the Olight M20 if you were deciding between the two.

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                  • #24
                    jkchan83
                    Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 292

                    Originally posted by sb_pete
                    Small update. Fenix just released a tape switch / pressure pad tailcap for the TK10/11 series. If you like that sort of thing, then that would definitely set it apart from the Olight M20 if you were deciding between the two.
                    Thanks for following up. Actually, I don't like tape switches. I don't like having the extra cord hanging off the gun. I will probably go with the Olight, but cash is tight right now. I purchased a couple of rifles and a handgun over the weekend. (Good deals that I just couldn't pass up.)
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                    • #25
                      BenjaminCA
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 1461

                      I just ordered the Fenix TK11 R2 and the Olight M20 Warrior. There was some great information in this post, not to mention how much money I saved buying from battery junction. I bout two of the 18650 rechargeable batteries and a charger. The entire order only came to about $210 for everything. Thanks for the great post. I was on the fence about what to buy, surefire is great but they come at a high price, but I was able to buy two lights for the same amount I was about to spend on a surefire. I will have pics as soon as I get the order. Only problem I have so far is that the lights are shipping all the way from the east coast. Waiting for a package is almost as bad as the long ten days...
                      Somebody just back of you while you are fishing is as bad as someone looking over your shoulder while you write a letter to your girl. ~Ernest Hemingway

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                      • #26
                        jkchan83
                        Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 292

                        Originally posted by jkchan83
                        Okay, one flashlight down: I have decided to go with an incan Pelican M6 for the HD shotgun. I will also pick up the Lumens Factory EO-6 and the UCL glass lens.
                        Well, I have a problem: the M6 that I received apparently has a new design. I could not remove the stock lens from the flashlight in order to use the UCL lens.

                        On top of that, I just received the Lumens Factory EO-6 and it won't fit in the flashlight. Specifically, the stock bulb assembly is approximately 1/4" longer than the EO-6. When the EO-6 is installed, the contact spring doesn't reach the batteries.

                        So, I have an extra lens and bulb assembly that I can't use. Fortunately, they only cost about $30 total. Plus, shipping the bulb all the way back to Hong Kong is probably not worth the trouble.

                        If anyone has ideas about how to get the lens or bulb assembly to work in the Pelican M6, I'd appreciate it.
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                        • #27
                          maxicon
                          Veteran Member
                          • Oct 2005
                          • 4661

                          I'd try doing a search over at www.candlepowerforums.com, then posting the question if nothing comes up. They're the #1 flashlight web site out there.

                          Out of curiousity, why did you decide on incandescent for a shotgun?
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                          • #28
                            jkchan83
                            Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 292

                            Originally posted by maxicon
                            I'd try doing a search over at www.candlepowerforums.com, then posting the question if nothing comes up. They're the #1 flashlight web site out there.

                            Out of curiousity, why did you decide on incandescent for a shotgun?
                            Basically, due to the above discussion, I decided that for a HD shotgun, I would like to have the greatest flood capability in a smallish, weapon-mounted flashlight. Currently, that means incandescent. It's the idea that I want to be able to light up an entire wall in one swoop.

                            Thanks for the info for CPF. I will look over there.
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                            • #29
                              J_Rock
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2007
                              • 2097

                              I would recommend the surefire scout with the KX2C head. Its got a good combination of spill and throw in a small package.

                              See my sig Im selling a spare

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                              • #30
                                Jon2
                                Junior Member
                                • Mar 2009
                                • 11

                                What an awesome thread. I'm new to CGN and wish I had found it years ago - condensed info like this is priceless.

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