Need optics advice

[Bushwack44]

For recreational outdoor range shooting a 243 and a 270 (during the day), which optics would be best (shooting 50-600 yards):

A 4-16x50 or a 6-18x44? Budget is $400 (would be happier spending less).

I assume the larger objective would be better for 300+ yards but the lower magnification would be best for 50-200 yards. Is it better to choose favoring the objective (if 70% of target shooting would be 300 yards or more)?

On a related topic, what would be the ideal distance between the bottom of the objective and the barrel?

[ExtremeX]

Ur asking a question that can really go in any direction.... you really need to set a price range.

A 44mm objective from a scope made with better glass, components, and coatings can wildly exceed the performance of a 50mm objective scope made with lesser components and coatings.

I would spend less time worrying about objective size and more time just making sure the scope you are picking is of decent quality and fits your shooting application.

Scopes in those mag ranges come in different flavors, you can go with a reticle/turret combo which is better for dialing correction, or something more of a hunting scope with capped turrets and whatever reticle they use in those like a BDC reticle.

In those magnification ranges, you want something with side parallax or front AO at the bare minimum. Stay away from optics without a parallax adjustment. Larger tube diameters like 1" vs 30mm may also afford you additional erector travel for adjustment for distance shooting.

If you have some scopes in mind you should list them.

In the 4-16x50 type range, I have always liked the Vortex PST 4-16 which comes in FFP and SFP versions. That's pretty much what I used for casual target shooting until I upgraded. The PST offers a good balance of quality and performance.

To your question about height over bore... depends on the rifle and how you have it setup, but generally speaking lower the better. If you have an adjustable comb then you have some wiggle room. AR type rifles have mounts specific to those systems too. On a bolt action, just make sure you can clear the objective bell.

[Bushwack44]

Budget is $400. I'd prefer receiving advice based on the optics (and my needs as stated in the first post) and not a name associated with each scope. Not looking for a competition scope.

Ur asking a question that can really go in any direction.... you really need to set a price range.

A 44mm objective from a scope made with better glass, components, and coatings can wildly exceed the performance of a 50mm objective scope made with lesser components and coatings.

I would spend less time worrying about objective size and more time just making sure the scope you are picking is of decent quality and fits your shooting application.

Scopes in those mag ranges come in different flavors, you can go with a reticle/turret combo which is better for dialing correction, or something more of a hunting scope with capped turrets and whatever reticle they use in those like a BDC reticle.

In those magnification ranges, you want something with side parallax or front AO at the bare minimum. Stay away from optics without a parallax adjustment. Larger tube diameters like 1" vs 30mm may also afford you additional erector travel for adjustment for distance shooting.

If you have some scopes in mind you should list them.

In the 4-16x50 type range, I have always liked the Vortex PST 4-16 which comes in FFP and SFP versions. That's pretty much what I used for casual target shooting until I upgraded. The PST offers a good balance of quality and performance.

To your question about height over bore... depends on the rifle and how you have it setup, but generally speaking lower the better. If you have an adjustable comb then you have some wiggle room. AR type rifles have mounts specific to those systems too. On a bolt action, just make sure you can clear the objective bell.

[ExtremeX]

I'm trying to teach you how to fish here... because from your statements it doesn't really sound like you understand optics or why you would buy one over another... with the info you give its basically going to come down to personal preference... You should spend some time at local stores and get hands on so you have an idea of what to expect.

You have yet to list any preference in operation... are you someone who prefers to set it and forget it and run a point blank zero, 100 yard zero and just hold over for everything, or turrets and dial drop using the knobs depending on the distance you are shooting?

You can find different scope in the same magnification range which are setup completely different from each other...

You have limited option with a $400 budget, but if you want a scope for target shooting, in a casual range environment and don't need a variable magnification range, you should really consider a fixed 10x or 12x from SWFA at about $300.

If you hunt with these rifles, the Vortex Diamondback HP series in a mag range you need might just fit the bill too. The HP series has side parallax but still maintains 1" tubes across the product line.

Most else in the < $400 range will essentially be crappy target scopes, or half decent hunting scopes. Why not pick a few scopes you might think fit the bill and have other CGs critique your selection?

[Bushwack44]

Always willing to learn but I don't think you read (or understood) my original post.

Looking for a scope that will shoot 50 - 600 yards (not a fixed distance) and asking if a larger objective is better at 300+ yards (+ sign means distances are a variable). Or a lower magnification is better for 50 - 200 yards. Asking if its better to concentrate on the objective vs the magnification.

No hunting ("recreational outdoor range shooting" as stated).

As for criticism vs advice, criticism often comes from emotion. Advice usually comes from knowledge.

Not meaning to appear ungrateful for you taking time to respond. Just not sure how much clearer I can be.

I'm trying to teach you how to fish here... because from your statements it doesn't really sound like you understand optics or why you would buy one over another... with the info you give its basically going to come down to personal preference... You should spend some times at local stores and get hands on so you have an idea of what to expect.

You have yet to list any preference in operation... are you something who prefers to set it and forget it and run a point blank zero, 100 yard zero and just hold over for everything, or turrets and dial drop using the knobs depending on the distance you are shooting?

You can find different scope in the same magnification range which are setup completely different from each other...

You have limited option with a $400 budget, but if you want a scope for target shooting, in a casual range environment and don't need a variable magnification range, you should really consider a fixed 10x or 12x from SWFA at about $300.

If you hunt with these rifles, the Vortex Diamondback HP series in a mag range you need might just fit the bill too. The HP series has side parallax but still maintains 1" tubes across the product line.

Most else in the < $400 range will essentially be crappy target scopes, or half decent hunting scopes. Why not pick a few scopes you might think fit the bill and have other CGs critique your selection?

[big blaze]

I like to mount a scope as close to the barrel as I can on bolt action rifles. For me it makes for a more comfortable head position when shooting. If your shooting a .270 out to 600 yards your going to need a scope that has the capability to dial about 12minutes of elevation. As for magnification 10 power would work just fine for shooting at 600 yards.

[FMJBT]

The larger objective size may give better low light performance depending on the quality of the glass, but really offers no other advantage for longer range shooting. As ExtremeX said, adjustable parallax is going to be a great help for covering the broad range from 50-600 yards. Scopes with a fixed parallax (typically set @100 yards) tend to have varying degrees of error at every other range that isn't 100 yards.

[ExtremeX]

Always willing to learn but I don't think you read (or understood) my original post.

Looking for a scope that will shoot 50 - 600 yards (not a fixed distance) and asking if a larger objective is better at 300+ yards (+ sign means distances are a variable). Or a lower magnification is better for 50 - 200 yards. Asking if its better to concentrate on the objective vs the magnification.

No hunting ("recreational outdoor range shooting" as stated).

As for criticism vs advice, criticism often comes from emotion. Advice usually comes from knowledge.

Not meaning to appear ungrateful for you taking time to respond. Just not sure how much clearer I can be.

First off I completely understand your question...

I have owned a pretty diverse collection of optics and have also turned that into a part of the hobby.

I have used a 1-6x scope to shoot 50-600 yards, I have also used a 5-20x50, 6-24x50, and a fixed 10x to do the exact same thing... So magnification range alone doesn't mean a damn thing for what you are asking to do, neither does objective size. I have owned 40 and 44mm objective scopes that completely demolished the performance of a lesser optic with a 50mm objective. The key points I was trying to make is that those specs are less important than the overall quality of the optic itself.

The other information I was trying to convey was not to worry about mag range or objective and start thinking about how the scope itself is setup. If you re-read my above posts you will see that there will be a high level of personal preference in that regard. This will effect how YOU interface with the optic when using it at different distances when dealing with bullet drop.

Another thing to note is that your casual target shooting might not be the same as the next guy... You ask 3 different people what scope is best, and you will receive 3 different answers. If you like shooting steel and enjoy a wide field of view you might select a lower magnification range vs someone who enjoys shooting groups and enjoys a 24x scope with a SFP reticle. Same distance and range, different shooting styles...

[Divernhunter]

Sorry you are missing ExtremeX point which is helpful and right on point.
The larger OB will be of no value.
The only thing gained by a 30mm tube will be adjustment IF it does not have 1" tube guts as many do.
For your ranges either will work. IF most shooting over 300 yards use the 6X18, BUT the 4X16 will also do well. The 6X will work fine at 50 yards when target shooting, so the 6X18 or 6.5X20 are just fine.
This is ADVISE from experience and not CRITICISM from emotion which it looks to me, as an outsider, you are stepping into that area when someone clearly had good advise and questions so he could give even better advise.

His comments about quality of glass being more important than power or OB size or tube diameter are 10000% correct.

$400 will not get you a excellent quality target scope that is a variable type. Pure and simple. He is correct with this.

He also is correct about asking if you want simple reticle or not, open or capped dials and such.

He is also correct that you should look thru a number of scopes you want to consider and/or list some you must have an idea about considering. If you have none, cannot give a more refined set of requirements then you need to do some research on your own and not trolling here for ideas then putting the poster down.

How high you mount the scope depends on the type of rifle. Example if you mount a scope very low on an AR or one of my 50BMG you cannot see thru it. They require a taller mount/rings. For most bolt/lever/single shot/pump and semi-auto rifles in the more traditional configuration you want it as close to the barrel as possible as long as the bolt/hammer will clear the scope. Examples: My H&R single shot hammer would hit my scope when mounted with very low rings, had to use a bit taller, have one bolt action that I was forced to use med rings due to bolt hitting the scope with low rings.

Bottom line is if you stop and digest what he(and myself) had to say you could get some good ADVISE, guidance and be in a position to ask more pinpoint questions while having others do your legwork.....Which we do not mind!! So please take some well intentioned(and true) ADVISE and be less CRITICAL(emotional) in your response and thinking.

I would be happy to speak to you on the phone and answer any questions, give advise or just BS if you PM me I will give you my phone number.

Truth is we would like to help and you seem a lot unsure about this subject by your posts.

[Bushwack44]

OK...Per suggestions to expand on what I'll do with a rifle/scope,...

Its all about enjoying myself at the range (I'm relatively new to bolt action rifles) while becoming better at target shooting (I'll never hunt or compete).

I'll shoot paper up to 100 yards (of which I'd like to achieve as tight a group as I can with factory ammo) and steel up to 600 yards (using a bolt action Remington 700 CDL in 270 or Mossberg Patriot in 243). Majority of my shooting steel will be at Angeles, where I think 100 yard targets are as small as 6" round and 600 is as small as 3" (or so I was told).

I'd prefer a BDC reticle as I'm accustomed to it (AR has a Nikon P223 and the Spot-On app is somewhat helpful...when it doesn't crash) but I'm open to change. For the dials capped is preferred (but its all bench shooting). Don't have preference to a particular brand. I have preference to good glass at a good value.

I consider the scope (as I do the rifle) a stepping stone. As skills and knowledge improves, so will the rifle and scope.

From what I've read so far, I'm looking at these Vortex scopes (this 6-18x44 Crossfire II - http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/...ex-moa-reticle) or this 4-16x42 (http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/...eticle/reticle). Also thinking about this Nikon 4.5-18x40 - http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/n...atte-bdc-.html

[Unretarded]

Every scope is a tool and your intended purpose will dictate the best tool...


Since you will not be hunting........field of view is of a lesser concern, since that allows you to aquire targets faster, I assume your targets will be fixed.


Iron sights can easily shoot 600 yards, so any scope will work, even a 4x........having said that, target shooters usually go with the most magnification possible to see impacts and bullets holes in paper.

The higher you go into magnification the more you lose in low magnification, most scopes do 4 times the lowest number.

10 power will get you to 1000 yards, but you can not see holes in paper with it at 600 yards.......my last scope was a 4x16 zoom........for target shooting, my next one will be much more. trying to see impacts at 600 yards is hard at 16x......no hope of seeing holes in paper.

Easiest way to see what you like is get a super cheap high zoom scope and go from there, untill you use it, you will not know what you like, I like as much zoom as possible......10 by 40 is nice.

Scopes are like hammers....the ideal concrete buster, a heavt sledge is not what you would use for finish nails and a finsh nail hammer would be equally useless at concrete busting.

Most people have serveral scopes to fit many needs........

Objective size is not a issue with your application......

You might want to get the most magnification in a 10x scope you can.............if you go higher than that you might run into mirrage problems on a hot day.

8x32 or 10x40 zoom would be my picks............

You might want to get a cheap scope 50 to 100 bucks to try out and see what you like....everyone is different, my recomendation is you will want as much magnification as possible for target shooting, unless you have a dedicated spotter, a target camera or want to shoot rounds into the unknown and then look thru a spotting scope to see where you were hitting.

My 10x fixed scope is good for seeing holes at 100 yards with my 270, 200 yards......very hard, shooting stell at 1000 yards I can see impacts in the dirt when it is dry and hits on steel are very hard to see at all.


Shooting with a 4x16 zoom at 100 in 223 is easy to see...200 yards is getting harder to see holes in paper.......after that at 600 yards you can see dirt splashes in ideal conditions and impacts on steel are difficult to see.....dirst splashes at 850 are easy to see i good conditions, steel hits are near impossible.

My next scope for target use will be a minimal of 32x max....possibly more...........for target only magnification is your friend.

However the fixed 10x would be almost impossible to hunt with.....


You need to pin down exactly what you want from the scope and let that dictate your choice in magnification.


400 bucks will get you a decent scope...just stick with brand names.

A used cheap 50 dollar scope will tell you if you like magnification or not.........the reason I say this is, most people buy 2 or 3 scopes at first untill they understand what they like. Watch some youtube vids to get some info also.

As stated above...scopes are a whole different division of this hobby themselves, I have 6 or 7 and plan on more as each ones has a purpose and fills a certain role.

A very common thing to hear is " I will be getting X feature in my next scope". As use is the only way to tell what you like......but I will say in your application most want more magnification very few want less and the more you spend the better a scope gets......I have been stuck in the 250 dollar to 400 dollar range as these scopes serve the purposes of what I do, but my next one will be in the 1700 dollar range for my long range top tier rifle.

There is soo much to scopes I could write 10 pages, as my post did not even brush the surface.

Get a ton of magnification for target shooting is my recomendation..........if you hate it, sell it for a few dollar loss or keep it, consider it the cost of school and get another one.

[ExtremeX]

I consider the scope (as I do the rifle) a stepping stone. As skills and knowledge improves, so will the rifle and scope.

That's a good attitude but here is something to consider, and this comes from experience... If you want to accelerate the learning curve, you should strongly consider stepping out of your comfort zone and look at purchasing a scope with a matching reticle/turret graduated in a MIL or MOA scale...

A correctly setup target scope will hopefully accelerate you toward that "ah-ha" moment. Using a rifle scope isn't a complex thing, but using a incorrectly setup scope as a target scope will probably slow you down.

For the budget you mentioned, I still feel the SWFA fixed 10x or 12x power scopes are more than adequate; and considering how large the targets at Angelas are, you wont feel under-magnified at all.

If you can get over the fact you are buying a fixed mag optic, it would serve you better than anything you listed above. Optically its a good scope with probably the best tracking performance you will get for that type of coin. It sure meets the value criteria you mentioned above.

If and when you are ready to move on, you wont have any problem finding a buyer for a used SWFA scope either.

Here is a good video to help you understand their background.

[Unretarded]

OK...Per suggestions to expand on what I'll do with a rifle/scope,...

Its all about enjoying myself at the range (I'm relatively new to bolt action rifles) while becoming better at target shooting (I'll never hunt or compete).

I'll shoot paper up to 100 yards (of which I'd like to achieve as tight a group as I can with factory ammo) and steel up to 600 yards (using a bolt action Remington 700 CDL in 270 or Mossberg Patriot in 243). Majority of my shooting steel will be at Angeles, where I think 100 yard targets are as small as 6" round and 600 is as small as 3" (or so I was told).

I'd prefer a BDC reticle as I'm accustomed to it (AR has a Nikon P223 and the Spot-On app is somewhat helpful...when it doesn't crash) but I'm open to change. For the dials capped is preferred (but its all bench shooting). Don't have preference to a particular brand. I have preference to good glass at a good value.

I consider the scope (as I do the rifle) a stepping stone. As skills and knowledge improves, so will the rifle and scope.

From what I've read so far, I'm looking at these Vortex scopes (this 6-18x44 Crossfire II - http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/...ex-moa-reticle) or this 4-16x42 (http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/...eticle/reticle). Also thinking about this Nikon 4.5-18x40 - http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/n...atte-bdc-.html

I just purchased the crossfire 4x16 and it is good, but that was enuff magnification to tell me I wanted double that or more.......10x fixed told me I wanted more for doing very close to what you are talking about.

100 yard paper and steel to200- 600-1000........


10x is fine at 100 yards, not too much..........a 10 by 40 is where I would go for your application.......I am no guru, and new to scopes, but when its hard to see, you will want more magnification and 16x is not enuff at 600 yards unless they just painted the steel and you are the only one shooting it, if not you will want more magnification.

People at the ranges are usually friendly and will at least let you look thru their scopes and hopefully shoot a few rounds...I would.

[Unretarded]

That's a good attitude but here is something to consider, and this comes from experience... If you want to accelerate the learning curve, you should strongly consider stepping out of your comfort zone and look at purchasing a scope with a matching reticle/turret graduated in a MIL or MOA scale...

A correctly setup target scope will hopefully accelerate you toward that "ah-ha" moment. Using a rifle scope isn't a complex thing, but using a incorrectly setup scope as a target scope will probably slow you down.

For the budget you mentioned, I still feel the SWFA fixed 10x or 12x power scopes are more than adequate; and considering how large the targets at Angelas are, you wont feel under-magnified at all.

If you can get over the fact you are buying a fixed mag optic, it would serve you better than anything you listed above. Optically its a good scope with probably the best tracking performance you will get for that type of coin. It sure meets the value criteria you mentioned above.

If and when you are ready to move on, you wont have any problem finding a buyer for a used SWFA scope either.

Here is a good video to help you understand their background.

I agree 100% and have that scope!


Here is a great video series on shooting long range and 600 is starting to be long range, but the long range scope vids apply to your ranges too....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTca3wF35Og

[ExtremeX]

I just purchased the crossfire 4x16 and it is good, but that was enuff magnification to tell me I wanted double that or more.......10x fixed told me I wanted more for doing very close to what you are talking about.

100 yard paper and steel to200- 600-1000........


10x is fine at 100 yards, not too much..........a 10 by 40 is where I would go for your application.......I am no guru, and new to scopes, but when its hard to see, you will want more magnification and 16x is not enuff at 600 yards unless they just painted the steel and you are the only one shooting it, if not you will want more magnification.

People at the ranges are usually friendly and will at least let you look thru their scopes and hopefully shoot a few rounds...I would.

Just a word of advise... when you speak about scopes it gets a bit confusing...

When you say 4x16, you are referring to a 4x scope with a 16mm objective. The correct way to write that is (Mag Range)x(objective size), so 4-16x50. If its a fixed power scope like a 10x with a 44mm objective, you would write that 10x44.

I also see a trend in your posts where you are generally chasing huge amounts of magnification... unless you are spending REAL coin on scope where optical performance is generally well above average, you will end up with a blurry, darkened, and degraded image the higher up you go.

I shoot out 12"x12" steel plates at 1000+ yards with 4x and 6x scopes just fine, but the glass on those scopes are amazing.

Ill take optical performance over magnification any day of the week...