Horizontal foregrips? Anyone have experience with SIDE mounted grips on a pistol?

[stilly]

So it looks like there is a good chance that I will be getting my gun modified for the better but I am curious.

Has anyone ever put any horizontal grips on their pistols?

Is it ony illegal to put a foregrip underneath a gun or can I have something sticking out the side?

What are alternatives?

I was shooting my 44 mag today and on regular 700-x loads there were no issues, but when I put an ENFORCER or H-110 in it, LTFO! It jumped out of my hands about 3" because I did not have a good grip on it.

When I had a Cobray CM-11 (MAC-9mm no suppressor or folding stock) I had purchased a cordura/ nylon strap that attached to the front of it like a foregrip, but it was just a strap. It actually attached to the threaded barrel just behind the barrel nut that secured the 8" barrel that I bought and put in it. When I later picked up that fiberglass skeleton buttstock and put it on, it did great at allowing me to control the muzzle climp and that dinky little pistol.

Can I attach a strap to this gun as well that might hang down or off to the side? SOMETHING to secure it to my hand a bit better? Even being able to put a braided leather loop on it would be good. You can not hold the top due to the hot barrel and you can not grasp the wooden forend very well.

What are my options? Can I get finger loops to hold on to or something?

I want to stay within the law of course because I am sure there are some options that I have but a strap like the Mossberg shotgun forends have might work well for me. I do not like losing control of my gun even though it is a lever action and since I will have a rail underneath, I want to utilize it for the better.

Any ideas?

From what I have gathered the Magpul AFG is okay to put on, but when I was looking in other forums, people just got into big fights.

I think I DID see that the law defined an angled foregrip as a second stock that was protruding underneath the angle of the bore or something, so if I were to mount a foregrip on the side, that would be okay, but that seems to simple so I am still reading and looking this up and maybe I will even call ATF tomorrow and ask a guy I met last year to get his opinion.

Maybe there is something that sticks out enough to be used as a grip but it is not a grip.

[Quiet]

If the grip is vertical from the barrel and attached to a Title 1 Handgun, then you will need BATFE approval to make a Title 2 AOW in order to be legal.

So far, BATFE is allowing grips that are horizontal or angled from the barrel to be attached to a Title 1 Handgun.

It does not matter which position the grip is attached.

[Junkie]

This is a mare's leg of some sort?

I wouldn't put a VFG on the side of it. A strap of some sort is most likely ok. Or you could have the forend checkered to increase grip.

[JMP]

If the grip is vertical from the barrel and attached to a Title 1 Handgun, then you will need BATFE approval to make a Title 2 AOW in order to be legal.

So far, BATFE is allowing grips that are horizontal or angled from the barrel to be attached to a Title 1 Handgun.

It does not matter which position the grip is attached.

Can you please elaborate. You are saying it is okay, right? I do not understand what makes a grip "vertical" to the barrel as barrels are symmetric.

I understand what you are saying, but in the case where someone cants his firearm while shooting, the grip becomes orthogonal to the ground, i.e. vertical. Thus, what are the tolerances for a "vertical" grip, namely, how much variance from orthogonal would be required to make it allowable?

It's really one of the most ridiculous laws that is as silly as language that would suggest you need a bullet button for a grenade launcher, when it's moot since you can't have grenades to the best of my understanding.

I'd simply avoid it since it's generally not needed. But, stilly, I hear what you are saying as an extra handle and the big mags would be a good feature. On my 460, the weight and recoil fatigue me after too much shooting.

[stilly]

Can you please elaborate. You are saying it is okay, right? I do not understand what makes a grip "vertical" to the barrel as barrels are symmetric.

I understand what you are saying, but in the case where someone cants his firearm while shooting, the grip becomes orthogonal to the ground, i.e. vertical. Thus, what are the tolerances for a "vertical" grip, namely, how much variance from orthogonal would be required to make it allowable?

It's really one of the most ridiculous laws that is as silly as language that would suggest you need a bullet button for a grenade launcher, when it's moot since you can't have grenades to the best of my understanding.

I'd simply avoid it since it's generally not needed. But, stilly, I hear what you are saying as an extra handle and the big mags would be a good feature. On my 460, the weight and recoil fatigue me after too much shooting.

This whole damn stupid vertical vs horizontal is a bunch of bull**** with the BATF. BUT, When I was trying to get to the bottom of this, I discovered that the BATF words things properly and in such a way that works for THEM. Any ANGLED foregrip will work, but in like 99.9% of their letters they tell people NO VERTICAL FOREGRIP on a PISTOL or something like that.

But GET this, a Pistol is NOT the same as a Revolver or a Hand Gun. So I read that having a horizontal foregrip on a pistol is FINE. But then I was thinking, WHAT IF they say that if you turn the gun 90 degrees it is now a vertical foregrip.

But THEN you come back to a problem with the BATF, in that they have been smacked in the past for not allowing things so they stick with vertical foregrip and they will NOT say ANY foregrip. Because apparently, if a gun was FIRST made to be fired a certain way, then just by putting a horizontal foregrip on it (or a second stock that is underneath the bore line and at a right angle or something like that in their language) that does NOT make it illegal although they might still hiss at it, they are not allowed to say NO in writing.

SOMETHING like that. I got caught up in the arguments that erupted and started trying to put together pieces and before you know it all hell broke out at ARF's forum site and lawyers were throwing chairs at dentists and doctors were kicking babies out of the way- I just got out of there.

So I figured that since I have some time, I will do my OWN research and I thought I would ask here among a bunch of level headed commiefornians. Those newyorkers are just bat**** crazy...

So I thought I would start the fight-err argument- err QUESTION here and see if I could discover anything else or anything new.

Yeah JMP, My thoughts exactly, except that when I shot my h-110 and my Enforcer loads, it jumped out of my hand about 3+ inches. So I think I need SOMETHING there. When the gun is completed I will post pics. But it DOES tend to jump out and since there is no action to eat it up like the Deagle has, I am afraid of it becoming dangerous.

And Yes Junkie, it will be for a mare's leg of some sort. I thought that I could get by with a strap but using a strap as a vertical foregrip... Ya SEE where it goes? I am thinking a cool leather strap needs to be constructed. No china made ballistic nylon crap for this job.

[Merc1138]

In what world did you get the idea that a revolver or handgun, is not a pistol?

Sure, a pistol grip doesn't have to be on a handgun. Heck, long guns can have them. Here's an english style stock, and one with a pistol grip on an O/U shotgun:


But assuming that the word "pistol" by itself somehow excludes revolvers, handguns, or anything that isn't a semiauto pistol, is a very bad idea.

[stilly]

In what world did you get the idea that a revolver or handgun, is not a pistol?

Sure, a pistol grip doesn't have to be on a handgun. Heck, long guns can have them. Here's an english style stock, and one with a pistol grip on an O/U shotgun:


But assuming that the word "pistol" by itself somehow excludes revolvers, handguns, or anything that isn't a semiauto pistol, is a very bad idea.

Brah it is the BATF, not me. Apparently the definition of a pistol is not the same as a revolver nor the same as a hand gun.

This is partially why they talk like BORG OF GUNS and give you prerecorded answers.

Pistol: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...inition-pistol
Revolver: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...ition-revolver

Handgun I might be wrong or misread, I thought someone said the definition of a handgun was different...



SO, now that the fire has started with the horizontal foregrip, I am curious.

Has anyone used this:

http://www.amazon.com/HFIRE-Military-Tactical-Pressure-Condition/dp/B00HF8URY4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1435045962&sr=8-5&keywords=military+green+laser

I think this one is giving people issues.

What about this one:

http://www.opticsplanet.com/laser-devices-dual-beam-aiming-laser-w-green-ir-laser-sights-ir-illuminator.html

It looks kinda cool. I am after a heavy duty light/laser (green laser) that is gonna be used and it just dawned on me. Is it possible that by attaching this to the side of the gun and then attaching a magpul type straight foregrip to it, I have found a loophole in the convoluted law and technically there is nothing wrong with this because the grip will be attached to a light/ laser and not the firearm itself?

But sorry for the tangent, I am wanting a good setup for a light and laser and I was curious if this is a decent one or if I could get a recco on what is a better one to go with. If I could keep them on the same side/accessory/attachment then that would be great.

[Merc1138]

Brah it is the BATF, not me. Apparently the definition of a pistol is not the same as a revolver nor the same as a hand gun.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-gun-control-act-definition-pistol

That definition covers revolvers, semiauto handguns, derringers, break actions, muzzle loaders, etc.

https://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/guides/importation-verification/download/firearms-imporation-verification-guidebook--complete.pdf

I suggest you take a hard look at pages 72 and 73 of that PDF, as it simply defines what a pistol is(with examples) and defines revolvers as a separate type of "pistol" along with the supporting USC and CFR.

Edit: Heck, even the link you included clearly states

The term “Revolver” means a projectile weapon of the pistol type, having a breechloading chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the hammer or movement of the trigger rotates it and brings the next cartridge in line with the barrel for firing.

That doesn't make it "not" a pistol.

[stilly]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-gun-control-act-definition-pistol

That definition covers revolvers, semiauto handguns, derringers, break actions, muzzle loaders, etc.

https://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/guides/importation-verification/download/firearms-imporation-verification-guidebook--complete.pdf

I suggest you take a hard look at pages 72 and 73 of that PDF, as it simply defines what a pistol is(with examples) and defines revolvers as a separate type of "pistol" along with the supporting USC and CFR.

Edit: Heck, even the link you included clearly states

That doesn't make it "not" a pistol.

I was initially stating what people were flinging back and forth in the forum. I did a quick look and grabbed those links. I should have looked for the definition of vertical foregrip too.

[JMP]

Look at what Smith sells. Is this legal?

The revolver pictured on the bottom has two forend grips.

[ke6guj]

ATF does not have a definition of VFG that they point to to decide if something is an AOW. the way the law works is that basically all pistol-type guns are considered AOW unless they fall into the pistol or revolver classification. Pistols/revolvers are "designed to be fired with one hand" meaning one grip. ATF has allowed horizontal grips and AFGs that run parallel with the barrel to still be considered pistols and not AOWs. but a HFG running perpendicular to the barrel like a sten mag may not be so fortunate to avoid AOW classification. mounting a chainsaw grip on an AR-pistol might trigger AOW classification as well even though the primary gripping surfaces isn't vertical.

[JMP]

ke6jug, would it be allowable to run a bipod on a big magnum like the one Smith & Wesson advertises, except substitute the two-leg bipod to one that extends from a pistol grip monopod like some of the AR bipods?

Just curious to see your take as that would be essentially the same thing that stilly is looking for, but it is a bipod.

i.e. something like what's in the following picture:

[stilly]

ATF does not have a definition of VFG that they point to to decide if something is an AOW. the way the law works is that basically all pistol-type guns are considered AOW unless they fall into the pistol or revolver classification. Pistols/revolvers are "designed to be fired with one hand" meaning one grip. ATF has allowed horizontal grips and AFGs that run parallel with the barrel to still be considered pistols and not AOWs. but a HFG running perpendicular to the barrel like a sten mag may not be so fortunate to avoid AOW classification. mounting a chainsaw grip on an AR-pistol might trigger AOW classification as well even though the primary gripping surfaces isn't vertical.

Yeah but it seemed to go a bit beyond that. Apparently into cases that came up and the letters being sent out and ATF getting into trouble for saying some of the things they said in print. But the guy that seemed to know what he was talking about said a horizontal FG was not illegal. Not that I am believeing it (because if I did then I would not have come here and asked) but do you have access to or know of any cases or case law that allowed various types of foregrips to be installed without triggering 502 codes and all that jazz?

Anything BEYOND the law I guess is what I am looking for. I know that the LAW starts with the codes that are written, but case law can decide against that and can be a game changer.

Can a strap be considered a vertical foregrip? It can hang down. It would be nice to know what my limits are. I am thinking if I do not like the AFG then I will go for a strap, or maybe BOTH anyways but the strap will be made of leather if I custom make one myself so since it will be leather it will have a little thickness and rigidity to it.