Help with selecting a 1000 yard scope

[PrimaryArms]

Help with selecting a 1000 yard scope

Dmitri, if the primary arms scope does not move under recoil and retains zero, it is a good start. I need the ability to make first round hits. Any scope will let you walk the shots into a target, and some people do it with iron sights at a 1000 yards. To get close to a first round hit, I need the turrets to make upto 100 clicks to and from zero and Return to the same point every time and stay there under recoil of hundreds of rounds. I may shoot about 3000 rounds in a year from now and need a scope that will stand up to it.
If the scope is faulty, I might easily spend $100 in load tweaking and barrel life, and maybe much more if I start trying to 'fix' other problems that don't exist, so any economy offered by primary arms will go out of the window by that point.
Are you sure your scope can stand up to this? Has it been tested this extensively?

What you saw was a first round hit. And its mounted on a 300win mag
The scope is proven and why it was chosen by MAC and why we are putting several reticles in it.
Check out AKOU ask mrgunsngear and read reviews on it, its loved by the guys that run M1A
-Dimitri

[chiefblackbeard]

I don't understand why you'd want to limit yourself unnecessarily to 10x. Personally I'd save some more money and try to get my hands on something like one of the bushnell models discussed in this thread. The vortex 6-24 PST FFP isn't bad, but I'd only recommend it if you can get a hell of a deal on it(at the price I paid, I would have been able to sell it and not take a loss if I really wanted to get something else instead). The $950 asking price at most places I'd never consider paying. Even then, there are better scopes out there.

The PA scope... no. I have the same model that the guy has in the youtube video, and no. Mine resides on a .22lr that gets shot at 100 yards tops, and even the idea of putting it on one of my ARs is something I'd find laughable, let alone my .308. Even then I'm still considering taking the thing off of that .22lr rifle and replacing it with the bushnell or leupold sitting within arm's reach(I've just been really lazy and have zero motivation to do it). I'm sorry Dimitri, and I know this is off topic, but the suggestion is ludicrous. Yes the PA optics are better than the bottom of the barrel Big5 and walmart stuff. But they aren't so amazing that they compare to higher end optics. This is like telling someone to buy a ford fiesta, when they were looking at something like a mustang or camaro. Telling them to buy a porsche would be silly in the opposite direction, but there's a point when pushing the low end option is just ridiculous.

I am considering a fixed because you can usually get more clarity and more ruggedness than a variable at the same rate. For me fov is not as important as I am not going to hunt with it, just target practice at long range. I am okay with a fixed 10,12 or 16x to get the best quality and save the money for reloading components to shoot more
However if for under a 1000 the highest quality comes on a variable scope, I will get that.
I want something that I could mount, sight in and take for granted and focus on my shooting only.
Believe me if I had $3500 for a Schmidt and Bender 5-25, I would still mount a 1k scope and spend 2.5k on ammo and barrels.

[JMP]

I will be using the scope on a 6.5 creedmoor bolt gun. I don't see where the specifics of the cartridge are important, with a 20 moa scope base, any scope has enough travel to cover anything from 308 to 338 lapua.

It matters in several respects. To provide a few:
-If you are shooting a very high velocity cartridge or a cartridge with a lot of recoil, I'd strongly suggest getting a scope with a lower magnification setting so you can spot your hit. Since 6.5CD is not a very high velocity round, and it does not have a lot of recoil. Hence, you can probably ease up your requirements for the low range of magnfication, but I'd not have your low less than 6x. On the other hand, 6.5CD has a pretty far range and is a very precise shooter. This would want me to get decent magnfication on the high side. Thus, you can reduce your expense with a lower zoom multiple (typically 4) in something like a 6-24 or 5-20. Going to a higher multiple will increase the cost. I have a 6-24 on my 6.5CD as it doesn't need a the high zoom multiple.
-The cartridge may or may not allow for a BDC reticle. 6.5CD is not a cartridge that most BDC scopes are calibrated for, so I'd be sure to not get a BDC reticle. I do not use BDCs in scopes, but you certainly do not want it in a 6.5, it is a possibility if you are shooting something like a 308.
-A 20 MOA base is not sufficient for all scopes or all ranges. A scope will need a thicker tube to get more elevation travel. Some makers push their elevation range more, but if the amount of travel is too large for the geometry of the scope, you will be shooting at the scope's extrema. This will always result in some distortion, and it will limit the amount of wind adjustment at the extreme. Also, very fine adjustment scopes, like Benchrest scopes tend to have 1/8 MOA clicks, so you can dial more finely. The way the erector systems are made in these scopes generally result in a scope of little elevation travel. As a rule of thumb, base on the geometry of most rifles scopes, you can except 18 milliradian of true travel in a 30mm tube, 26 milliradian in a 34mm, and 36 milliradian in a 36mm. Some scopes and run more, but most that due will get you into distorition (that's not my opinion, it's a simple fact of physics that you will learn if you study optics and light). Generally, 20 MOA is good for a 30mm tube, 40-45 MOA in a 34mm tube, and 70-80 in a 36mm tube will be where you want to maximize your usable elevation, keep a 100 yard zero, and operating within the sweet spot of your scope.

I can use the scope exclusively for long range so I can go with a fixed power option if it can fit my criteria. I have a good feedback from a long range shooter for 16x swfa Ss.

A fixed 16 is not what you want as that provides too much power. 10x would be better for a fixed (assuming good glass). 16x is too much power as you will not be able to spot shot distances and you will not be able to shoot long distances either if you are dealing with a lot of convection currents that create mirage in the scope. In places like the hot desert, you'll find yourself wanting to dial lower to get a clear picture. That's why the fixed 10x is a pretty good power for all around shooting as it'll generally always work pretty well, but you have the disadvantage of not having your additional zoom, which you will want a precision cartridge like 6.5CD.

I am also getting a good deal on a steiner 3-12x50. Has anybody used the Steiner?

It isn't a bad scope, but there are two things that I do not like with the Steiner. First, the magnification is too low as I strongly suspect you'll want more in a 6.5CD. Second, they usually come with a reticle that is a bit too thick. I have a 4-16x Steiner and I don't like that much because it doesn't have enough magnification for the level of precision I'd like and the reticle is thick enough to block out part of the target. In a 6.5CD, the crosshair will block out a bullet hole at 100 yards if you were to shoot a group. In a cartridge like 6.5CD, when you are developing your loads, you should aim very very high precision. Namely, most 6.5CD shooters I know have the expectations of 1-hole 5 shots at 100 yards. That's hard to do with the low magnification and thick reticle. Yes, there are other schools of thought on magnfication, but for simple fixed distance precision, I am a high magnfication guy so that you can guarantee an identical point of aim for each spot. It's very hard to do if you don't have the magnification and fine enough reticle. There are other things about the Steiners I do not like, but they won't be corrected without going to a much higher end scope. However, the 3-12x Steiner is by far the best scope you have recommended.

Keep in mind, that I will point out faults with ANY scope anyone can suggest. It isn't to denegrate the particular scope, it's to help one assess his needs. I am just being honest based on my personal experience, but at the end of the day we all have to compromise with a scope since I have yet to find a perfect one.

In this post, for your purpose, I think HK Dave made the best suggestion for the SWFA HD 5-20x50. The only downside to that is the reticle, but it is the best long range scope (IMO) in the budget price range. I have made repeaded hits at a 1 MOA target at 1 mile with a SWFA HD 5-20x50. It's far from optimal, but it can do it.

[JMP]

I am considering a fixed because you can usually get more clarity and more ruggedness than a variable at the same rate. For me fov is not as important as I am not going to hunt with it, just target practice at long range. I am okay with a fixed 10,12 or 16x to get the best quality and save the money for reloading components to shoot more
However if for under a 1000 the highest quality comes on a variable scope, I will get that.
I want something that I could mount, sight in and take for granted and focus on my shooting only.
Believe me if I had $3500 for a Schmidt and Bender 5-25, I would still mount a 1k scope and spend 2.5k on ammo and barrels.

Black Beard, fortunately, you have picked a 6.5CD, which is a pretty inexpensive cartridge to run. Ballistically, it's one of the best bangs for the buck. 1200m is a good expectation of what you can maximally achieve and maintain accuracy/precision. Your barrels will last about 2,500 rounds and maintain very high precision (of course this is how you run it). This is a sidebar, but if cost is a concern, I can offer suggestions that will save you money.

1. For barrels, you should use a Bartlein 5r .264/.256" 1:8" twist at 28". The blanks cost $325 the same if you get 20" or 29" for a 1.25" contour. It costs more per inch after that. Therefore, you may as well do 28" as you will need to cut off an inch for finishing. The nice thing about the longest possible barrel is that you get more velocity and you can also prolong the barrel life by setting back the chamber. This is the process by which after about 1,000 rounds, you essentially get the barrel rechambered, but it'll shorten the ends exposing new metal for your bullet to engrave on. Second, if weight is not a concern for you, you can get the rifle built with a beefy, long barrel. Most short actions will start at 1.25" on the contour. Keeping the barrel as this as possible will generally enhance your accuracy when you need sustained shooting as it will provide for more rigidity and also take a long time for it to heat up. As a side benefit, in 6.5CD, you do not need to run the rifle with a brake. Getting a brake and having it installed will cost about $200 more when you have your barrel chambered as you need the brake, the gunsmith must thread the muzzle, and then to do it right the gunsmith must time the brake. If you cannot wait and order your contours custom, you can pretty much always get a barrel from Shiraz as he stocks a lot of good ones.

For reloading, you can forget about all the powders except for H4350. The only reason to not run H4350 is that you cannot find it. In that case, you would want RL-17. Then, for primers, use CCI Large (#200 or BR-2) or Federal 210. Do not waste your money on Winchester or any others. You'll want to run a bullet in the 139-142gr weight class, which has a lot of offering for factory made match grade, depending on your objective. Use right around 41.5gr of H4350 and adjust your seating depth until you find the sweet spot on your rifle's chamber/barrel. You can run it hotter at about 43.5gr for the next node, but this will get you faster wear. Most guys run at about 43.5gr; I run lower for very good accuracy because if I wanted to improve the ballistics, I'd rather reach for a 6mm. For dies, if you do not get them custom made ($400 for sizing + $120 for a Redding Comp seater), I'd recommending getting the Redding Comp set with 288"-291" bushings. Now, the catch is that for a long time there has been only one case, which is Hornady. I dislike the Hornady brass, so I got my hands on a few sets of Nosler when it came out that does well for that cartridge. When Norma announced they started making the case about a year ago, I ordered a case of their brass, but I have yet to see a single piece of brass, ever. However, Hornady brass is fine since it is available, and it is a lot cheaper. Since a lot of the sizing dies were set up to work on Hornady brass, you can get away with a cheap sizing die (this is one of the few exceptions where I'd say you can use a cheap die for sizing. For seating, you will need to get the Redding Comp seater for optimal results in the concentricity of your ammo, as mentioned, it's about $120.

Hence, it's pretty easy to run well. I give you that information so you don't need to waste money on anything else. That's pretty much what everyone has ended up with who has tried and spent a lot of money working up on his own. Just stick with that set up, and you will not be spewing money and waste.

[cwilliams]

Help with selecting a 1000 yard scope

JMP -

Excellent, excellent information. For a thread that I thought was going to go quietly into the night, you have breathed some life back into it.

I too am planning to do a 6.5CM gun. I want to go stock for the gun itself, likely a Savage 12 LRP, and decide what to do for upgrades when I feel they are needed. I'm also positive I will spend more on optics than for the gun. I look through extremely high end pieces of glass for a living and I know the difference between quality and squeaking by to get the job done. I've worked with both and I know which I prefer.

You also covered all the bases with my reloading questions and research I have been accumulating since learning about the 6.5CM. I was happy to see that RL-17 was part of your data because I was thinking it would be a good alternative to 4350. It looks like I'm on the right track!

[chiefblackbeard]

Black Beard, fortunately, you have picked a 6.5CD, which is a pretty inexpensive cartridge to run. Ballistically, it's one of the best bangs for the buck. 1200m is a good expectation of what you can maximally achieve and maintain accuracy/precision. Your barrels will last about 2,500 rounds and maintain very high precision (of course this is how you run it). This is a sidebar, but if cost is a concern, I can offer suggestions that will save you money.

1. For barrels, you should use a Bartlein 5r .264/.256" 1:8" twist at 28". The blanks cost $325 the same if you get 20" or 29" for a 1.25" contour. It costs more per inch after that. Therefore, you may as well do 28" as you will need to cut off an inch for finishing. The nice thing about the longest possible barrel is that you get more velocity and you can also prolong the barrel life by setting back the chamber. This is the process by which after about 1,000 rounds, you essentially get the barrel rechambered, but it'll shorten the ends exposing new metal for your bullet to engrave on. Second, if weight is not a concern for you, you can get the rifle built with a beefy, long barrel. Most short actions will start at 1.25" on the contour. Keeping the barrel as this as possible will generally enhance your accuracy when you need sustained shooting as it will provide for more rigidity and also take a long time for it to heat up. As a side benefit, in 6.5CD, you do not need to run the rifle with a brake. Getting a brake and having it installed will cost about $200 more when you have your barrel chambered as you need the brake, the gunsmith must thread the muzzle, and then to do it right the gunsmith must time the brake. If you cannot wait and order your contours custom, you can pretty much always get a barrel from Shiraz as he stocks a lot of good ones.

For reloading, you can forget about all the powders except for H4350. The only reason to not run H4350 is that you cannot find it. In that case, you would want RL-17. Then, for primers, use CCI Large (#200 or BR-2) or Federal 210. Do not waste your money on Winchester or any others. You'll want to run a bullet in the 139-142gr weight class, which has a lot of offering for factory made match grade, depending on your objective. Use right around 41.5gr of H4350 and adjust your seating depth until you find the sweet spot on your rifle's chamber/barrel. You can run it hotter at about 43.5gr for the next node, but this will get you faster wear. Most guys run at about 43.5gr; I run lower for very good accuracy because if I wanted to improve the ballistics, I'd rather reach for a 6mm. For dies, if you do not get them custom made ($400 for sizing + $120 for a Redding Comp seater), I'd recommending getting the Redding Comp set with 288"-291" bushings. Now, the catch is that for a long time there has been only one case, which is Hornady. I dislike the Hornady brass, so I got my hands on a few sets of Nosler when it came out that does well for that cartridge. When Norma announced they started making the case about a year ago, I ordered a case of their brass, but I have yet to see a single piece of brass, ever. However, Hornady brass is fine since it is available, and it is a lot cheaper. Since a lot of the sizing dies were set up to work on Hornady brass, you can get away with a cheap sizing die (this is one of the few exceptions where I'd say you can use a cheap die for sizing. For seating, you will need to get the Redding Comp seater for optimal results in the concentricity of your ammo, as mentioned, it's about $120.

Hence, it's pretty easy to run well. I give you that information so you don't need to waste money on anything else. That's pretty much what everyone has ended up with who has tried and spent a lot of money working up on his own. Just stick with that set up, and you will not be spewing money and waste.

That's very helpful info. Thanks!

[PrimaryArms]

Help with selecting a 1000 yard scope

Every bullet, barrel and chamber is different.
The powder, primer, COL, brass trim and so on will vary even if its the same model gun by the same manufacturer, each barrel is unique like a finger print. Even out of the same rifle using same grain bullets by different manufacturers there will be a different POI, BC,fps and optimal load. You need to find what your rifle likes and not just get some load off the internet.

-Dimitri

[JMP]

That is why I said "about" and "around", but the single most important factor for tuning the load for your barrel is the length. This is what you must try in graduations. I am sure that VV makes a good powder for 6.5CD as well, but I do not have experience with their lines. If you get other 6.5CD shooters in here, you'll find that they developed a similar charge weight with similar powders. I am not going to get into the physics of why those powders work with the cartridges while others do not (at least not optimally), but it is the range that will most universally work. For example, some shooters can achieve pretty good results using factory Lapua or Norma ammunition even though it has not been tuned to their guns. Some folks are even satisfied with Federal Gold Metal Match, which I find to be not up to par, but it is good enough for some.

As I indicated before, there are different options in the precision you need from your ammunition. That's why the best die you can get will be custom made to fit your chamber, but these cost about $400. Most people do not go through this process because regular factory dies will not give you an exact fit to your chamber, so as long as you are using a standard size reamer for your chambering, the factory dies will generally suffice. The Redding Competition dies are in between in that they'll allow for more flexibility in fire forming your brass to get a better fit for your chamber.

You can minimize the differential in bullets by getting higher grade bullets. There are speciality shops that will produce great bullets that are uniform by the lot and this eliminates the need for sorting. Figuring out the sweet spot is all about seating.

You will also want to use the appropriate reamer for your chamber. You will continue to use this reamer for your other rifles. Professionals that can operate a lathe with sufficient capability will be able to replicate consistent chamber sizes with the same reamer.

Also, for barrels, this is the reason that I purchase custom blanks spun in identicals. I actually got in a couple of identicals spun off consecutively off the same machine that I had to wait a year for. These are for my unlimited. As these barrels tend to be quite pricey, what folks will do is chamber them up with the same reamer, find a load and they will keep one barrel as a match barrel that they do not want to burn out. You will get your load very price on the barrel that is the development/general shooting barrel. For comparison, next to my heavy gauges, I have a standard size 6mm barrel that is chambered up.

[PrimaryArms]

Help with selecting a 1000 yard scope

That is why I said "about" and "around", but the single most important factor for tuning the load for your barrel is the length. This is what you must try in graduations. I am sure that VV makes a good powder for 6.5CD as well, but I do not have experience with their lines. If you get other 6.5CD shooters in here, you'll find that they developed a similar charge weight with similar powders. I am not going to get into the physics of why those powders work with the cartridges while others do not (at least not optimally), but it is the range that will most universally work. For example, some shooters can achieve pretty good results using factory Lapua or Norma ammunition even though it has not been tuned to their guns. Some folks are even satisfied with Federal Gold Metal Match, which I find to be not up to par, but it is good enough for some.



As I indicated before, there are different options in the precision you need from your ammunition. That's why the best die you can get will be custom made to fit your chamber, but these cost about $400. Most people do not go through this process because regular factory dies will not give you an exact fit to your chamber, so as long as you are using a standard size reamer for your chambering, the factory dies will generally suffice. The Redding Competition dies are in between in that they'll allow for more flexibility in fire forming your brass to get a better fit for your chamber.



You can minimize the differential in bullets by getting higher grade bullets. There are speciality shops that will produce great bullets that are uniform by the lot and this eliminates the need for sorting. Figuring out the sweet spot is all about seating.



You will also want to use the appropriate reamer for your chamber. You will continue to use this reamer for your other rifles. Professionals that can operate a lathe with sufficient capability will be able to replicate consistent chamber sizes with the same reamer.



Also, for barrels, this is the reason that I purchase custom blanks spun in identicals. I actually got in a couple of identicals spun off consecutively off the same machine that I had to wait a year for. These are for my unlimited. As these barrels tend to be quite pricey, what folks will do is chamber them up with the same reamer, find a load and they will keep one barrel as a match barrel that they do not want to burn out. You will get your load very price on the barrel that is the development/general shooting barrel. For comparison, next to my heavy gauges, I have a standard size 6mm barrel that is chambered up.

But your suggesting a particular powder, primer and so on with out a specific projectile.. each projectile has an optimal performance with a particular powder .Sounds like your telling him what your rifle likes.. I have almost identical rifles with same rate of twist and barrel length that like completely different loads.. I have some that will stabilize heavier rounds and others will not even with a higher rate of twist. No rifle is the same..
call the bullet manufacturer and they will tell you the same thing.In USMC Army load development everything is messed with in order to determine what the rifle likes and each rifle had its specific load issued. I guess its another thing we need to agree to disagree on..

[JMP]

But your suggesting a particular powder, primer and so on with out a specific projectile.. each projectile has an optimal performance with a particular powder .Sounds like your telling him what your rifle likes.. I have almost identical rifles with same rate of twist and barrel length that like completely different loads.. I have some that will stabilize heavier rounds and others will not even with a higher rate of twist. No rifle is the same..
call the bullet manufacturer and they will tell you the same thing.In USMC Army load development everything is messed with in order to determine what the rifle likes and each rifle had its specific load issued. I guess its another thing we need to agree to disagree.

No, I specified 139gr to 142gr, which implies a very specific detail of available bullets. I mean no offense, but you are not familiar with 6.5 projectiles. With .223 or 30 cal, I'd agree with you where there are 100s of projectiles.

[PrimaryArms]

Help with selecting a 1000 yard scope

No, I specified 139gr to 142gr, which implies a very specific detail of available bullets. I mean no offense, but you are not familiar with 6.5 projectiles. With .223 or 30 cal, I'd agree with you where there are 100s of projectiles.

Oh... Got it so because its 6.5 the harmonic wave is different not requiring load development!
Oh I am not offended.

[jonzer77]

But your suggesting a particular powder, primer and so on with out a specific projectile.. each projectile has an optimal performance with a particular powder .Sounds like your telling him what your rifle likes.. I have almost identical rifles with same rate of twist and barrel length that like completely different loads.. I have some that will stabilize heavier rounds and others will not even with a higher rate of twist. No rifle is the same..
call the bullet manufacturer and they will tell you the same thing.In USMC Army load development everything is messed with in order to determine what the rifle likes and each rifle had its specific load issued. I guess its another thing we need to agree to disagree on..

Is that any different then picking a particular factory ammo load?

http://youtu.be/aUMXsBShNtQ

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PrimaryArms]

Help with selecting a 1000 yard scope

Is that any different then picking a particular factory ammo load?

http://youtu.be/aUMXsBShNtQ

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not sure what you mean?
You can get the same projective from different manufacturers but their ammo will give you different fps and grouping. When it comes to selecting a factory or reload you must also look at the consistency of your fps not just how tight the group is at 100.

[JMP]

Oh... Got it so because its 6.5 the harmonic wave is different!
Oh I am not offended.

No, that's not at all what I meant, you aren't quite understanding as I probably did not articulate myself clearly enough. I didn't want to get too deep into the topic as this is not the correct subforum, but since folks seem to be interested in the coversation, I should have been more specific on my initial post when I said 139gr - 142gr, for 6.5mm guys that equates to:
139gr Scenar
140gr A-Max
140gr Berger VLD/Hybrid
142gr SMK

There's only about 5-6 projectiles that folks commonly use in 6.5CD.

It's also pretty universal that folks will shoot a 24-28" barrel. If they wanted a short barrel, they'd just stick with 308. If they wanted a longer barrel, they'd go for a case with better ballistics. Go walk the line where a bunch of guys shooting 1-holes with 6.5CD, and ask them their loads and you may be surprised at the relative uniformity among shooters. Perhaps some other 6.5CD shooters will pop in. Of course, you can run it lower, or with a powder like Varget or 4064 in the mid-30s, but the pressure builds too fast and you'll be limited in your velocity, but you can shoot it accurately.

Does that make more sense? Sorry for not being clear.

[PrimaryArms]

Help with selecting a 1000 yard scope

No, that's not at all what I meant, you aren't quite understanding as I probably did not articulate myself clearly enough. I didn't want to get too deep into the topic as this is not the correct subforum, but since folks seem to be interested in the coversation, I should have been more specific on my initial post when I said 139gr - 142gr, for 6.5mm guys that equates to:

139gr Scenar

140gr A-Max

140gr Berger VLD/Hybrid

142gr SMK



There's only about 5-6 projectiles that folks commonly use in 6.5CD.



It's also pretty universal that folks will shoot a 24-28" barrel. If they wanted a short barrel, they'd just stick with 308. If they wanted a longer barrel, they'd go for a case with better ballistics. Go walk the line where a bunch of guys shooting 1-holes with 6.5CD, and ask them their loads and you may be surprised at the relative uniformity among shooters. Perhaps some other 6.5CD shooters will pop in. Of course, you can run it lower, or with a powder like Varget or 4064 in the mid-30s, but the pressure builds too fast and you'll be limited in your velocity, but you can shoot it accurately.



Does that make more sense? Sorry for not being clear.

Your talking about a common accuracy load..
Perhaps you should explain it to Cwilliams and Blackbeard