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[emcon5]

Unfortunately I don't have any good photos right now showing close-ups of genuine Mosin sniper bolts, scopes, and mounts. And the fake rifle seller's photos aren't the best....sometimes people use poor quality photos or avoid photographing certain distinctive features to help disguise a fake rifle, hide damage or other issues, etc., but other times it isn't deliberate. However, the angle and shape of the bend in the bolt on that fake rifle is all wrong, and the sloppy weld (which is different from the sloppy welds found on real Mosin sniper bolts from the 1942-43 era) is visible if you look carefully.

Now that you mention it, the bend does look a little different. On my Tula it comes straight out for a little over 1/4 inch before bending sharply down. On the auction rifle the bend is more rounded.

The rear lens housing of the scope generally should not be a different color than the rest of the scope body unless it's one of the aluminum alloy rear lens housings used in WW2, in which case it should be painted black with a thick gloss black enamel. The bluing on the scope and the finish and machining on the adjustment knobs is also wrong, but you would have to be pretty familiar with real ones to spot that.

Interesting, my Molot Tula the eyepiece is a little different color, but appears to be steel, it is magnetic. It is a 1943 Progress scope, with a refurb stamp.

And the finish on the mount is wrong. A WW2 Soviet military mount will have a polished and blued finish on the rings and face of the mount, with the back of the mount also being blued but having very visible rough circular milling marks. Post-war Soviet era mounts have a similar finish to the ones on the fake sniper, but so do some of the current replica/fakes - and considering that the bolt and scope scream "fake", the mount does too. If there was a photo of the face of the mount I could tell exactly what it is - the current replicas/fakes have the same finish on the face of the mount as you see on the rings, but the post-WW2 Soviet era ones have a blued and polished finish.

Unfortunately the light is a little different, but here is another view of the Century Repro vs a real (Molot) Tula. The mount on the Tula is unmarked, but I have been told it is an Izzy mount. (On Edit: Evidently I am blind, it is marked. There is an Izhevsk triangle right next to the rifle S/N on the mount.)

[gwgn02]

The best Mosin sniper bolt conversions I have seen are the ones done by a guy in New York named Mike Battersby. My friend Duane "Cap'n Duane" Neese showed me a couple bolts Mike did for him, and they were absolutely indistinguishable from my originals when compared side by side.

I don't have Mike's contact info handy, but if you go to the Sniper Rifle Forum at Gunboards and ask, someone there should be able to get you that.

I've also heard that a guy named Max Shepherd does excellent work, but I haven't examined any of his bolts in person.

There is also Jim "Boltman" Roberts who advertises on Gunboards, but the way he does his bolts and the overall appearance and quality of them (I have owned a few of them) is noticably below Battersby's. Jim does his kind of in the style of very early Soviet sniper bolts and some of the Finn made ones, where he extends the handle, drills out the ball on the end of the handle, and then brazes the ball on the new handle. I guess it would be o.k. on a restoration or replica of an early 1930's Soviet PE rifle or a Finn sniper, but to my fine and discerning eye just doesn't look quite right on a later 30's or WW2 rifle.

I don't know if he still has any, but Gary Cole at Cole Distributing had some NOS Ukrainian arsenal made replica sniper bolts left over from when he was importing both genuine PU rifles and Ukrainian arsenal replica PE and PU rifles. They were about $35 each or $3 for $99. They did require just a little fine finishing and cleaning up of the welds with some fine files and a little emery paper or crocus cloth and the quality as far as the correct angle of the bend did vary a little, but once cleaned up they were nice looking. I would always buy 9 or 12 at a time, clean them up, and keep the best ones for my own use. Also, by buying them in quantity, it increased the chance of getting the scarcer Tula maked ones. Some of these are made from early bolt bodies with the rounded boss or "collar" where the handle meets the bolt body, and while this style is good for very early or Finn snipers, it isn't accurate or authentic for later rifles. However, with some files and a little time and work, it is easy enough to reshape. Of course, I am rather particular and demand the highest degree of originality and authenticity on everything I own, including restored or re-scoped snipers.

Gary Cole also had some of the Ukrainian made PE scopes with mounts in the $300 range. His scopes were made to the actual 1933 specifications, not the type like Accumounts has that look like a PE but are actually modern scopes and totally different inside. I don't know if he still has any or what they cost, but they are the next best thing to an original 1930's production scope.

Since an original PEM siderail mount setup is almost impossible to find and will cost a small fortune on the incredibly rare occassion one is offered for sale, the next best thing is one of the ones Gunboards member and former Soviet Dmitry "Feldscher" had made, by one of the original manufacturers in the former Soviet Union, a few years ago. These are long out of production and also as scarce as an honest politician, but if you could locate one it would look way better than the current Ukrainian or Chinese replicas.

Another Gunboards member and former Soviet, Igor Tsibleman, also had some PEM siderail mounts made a few years ago that are pretty nice - probably the 2nd best I've seen, after Dmitry's. I don't think he is making them any more either, but they do come up for sale sometimes.

Wealth of info..thanx So looking at scopes, would the non adjustable PE type scope be accurate for my 38'? Like this? http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...aPEM574013.jpg

[yuccales]

This could be a great discussion. Any other tips on spotting a real vs a replica PU scope?

Hard to tell from the pics but:
This dial looks different?
the color of the metal looks different?

other than trying to look for wear and age (and the scope covers) any other things to look for?

Turret screws. Flat vs rounded.

[SVT-40]

I guess I'm a fool then....but one that knows as much about Mosin snipers real and fake as anyone you will ever meet.

By itself the lens strap through the hole really isn't significant, but since so many of the replica snipers have it and so few real ones do, it is something to consider. I don't know about you, but when I walk in somewhere and see a rifle that might interest me, I'm already visually examining and evaluating it from across the room as I make my way toward it. Likewise, when I'm looking at photos, things that are "wrong" jump out at me immediately.

Seriously, an accessory which can so easily be changed has nothing at all to do with originality. It is less than "insignificant", It's meaningless. Stick to actual features ON the rifle ,scope or mount which could be indicators of originality or reproduction.

Because when you start making opinions based on groundless criterion you diminish what otherwise might be a meaningful opinion.

[NOTABIKER]

i have seen some thumb screws that hold the scope mount to the base [ the big one] that have very coarse threads. i thought that showed it was fake. did they use coarse and fine thread thumb screws over time.

[GOEX FFF]

When people start talking about the history of the type of rifle instead of the specific rifle that is being sold, its a red flag. This guys entire description is intentionally worded to look like this is a real sniper, but actually doesn't say that.

^^ Yup

But also, these aren't the seller's original words either.
If you paste them from the auction in a search, the "history lesson" in his description was copy and pasted into his auction from the web.

I see this often, folks starting out with a very minimal description and 1 or 2 pictures of the actual item for sale, then do a copy and paste of some full page history from wikipedia or the like. Those types of listings always raise red flags.

[NOTABIKER]

their is a hole in the wall gun store about 20 miles from me that is owned by this little old guy. he is not listed but he has some great old military rifles. all kinds , you name it. i think i was looking at a PU sniper their that came thru Serbia and only had the base on it. thanks for the info.i will take another look.

[lasbrg]

I guess they didn't like me agreeing to their terms and demands, as they just terminated my Gunbroker account.

Sorry for the experience Marcus, but thanks for the report. It reflects poorly on them.

[NOTABIKER]

I guess they didn't like me agreeing to their terms and demands, as they just terminated my Gunbroker account.

a good man stands on principle. good for you.

[NOTABIKER]

The PU rifles that only had the base attached came out of Albania around very late 2000-early 2001. The Albanians got them from Poland, and the Poles got them from the Soviets late in WW2 or immediately after. These can be quickly identified by the asterisk-like * markings that were used to cancel out the original scope serial number on the barrel shank, and they have the Century Arms "Georgia Vt." address on the import mark on the barrel instead of the slightly earlier "St. Albans Vt." address.

These "asterisked" rifles range from all original matching in pristine condition to well used beaters. No one know what happened to the scopes and mounts - perhaps the Albanians took them off to use for spares on other PU snipers and they disappeared or were scrapped after the fall of Communism.

In decent shape, an "asterisked" rifle without scope or mount should be worth in the $500 or so range.

great info, i must check it out.the old guy that has this little shop is very nice but also short on info. i bought a 1905 tula M 91 from him and could not pry info about it from him.