C & R handguns

[Bigyates]

What is required to sell and transfer a C & R Handgun?

[1-M-42]

In CA?, PTP transfer through an 01 FFL

[Mad-B-Man]

I've actually been wondering...

Say you go physically import c&r handguns by yourself. You have to send in registration within 5 days of entering California, yes? Same thing with moving from out of state with a handgun; 60 days to register it. Can you sell the handgun before that or do you have to send in registration and have everything in your name first?

From what I've read on calguns, it seems that you can just sell prior to registering it in your name, as there is no requirement that a handgun be register before it has to be sold, yes?

[paul0660]

From what I've read on calguns, it seems that you can just sell prior to registering it in your name, as there is no requirement that a handgun be register before it has to be sold, yes?

Through a 01 with dros and state fees, yes. If you are thinking about becoming an undercover importer, let us know how it goes.

[Mad-B-Man]

Oh but of course, through an 01 FFL. I was just wondering since I was thinking of ordering some hand guns to have shipped to timber outdoors in reno, then drop over there to pick them up when I'm at lake tahoe this December. If selling before registration to your own name is possible, then I was thinking of doing a very small group buy since I can order up to 4 gun on the $20 fee. I personally would just be getting 1 or 2.

[paul0660]

You would be importing and dealing, I think, or they could say so. You may only sell 5 or less handguns in a year btw, separate but related issue.

[BigJ]

Oh but of course, through an 01 FFL. I was just wondering since I was thinking of ordering some hand guns to have shipped to timber outdoors in reno, then drop over there to pick them up when I'm at lake tahoe this December. If selling before registration to your own name is possible, then I was thinking of doing a very small group buy since I can order up to 4 gun on the $20 fee. I personally would just be getting 1 or 2.

No way. You cannot use your C&R to buy guns you do not plan to keep. Read your paperwork. Its pretty clear on this point.

You are welcome to buy it, and then later decide you wish to pass it along. But do as you're suggesting and you'll find yourself in hot water in a hurry.

[paul0660]

Its pretty clear on this point.

I had one of those C&R things once, and the language is not clear, but like I said what Mad is proposing can be found illegal.

[paul0660]

Its pretty clear on this point.

I had one of those C&R things once, and the language is not clear, but like I said what Mad is proposing can be found illegal.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Personal Handgun Importers are allowed to transfer a handgun through a PPT at a dealer within 60 days instead of sending in the New Resident form. C&R FFLs don't have that option. They are required to send in the C&R Handgun Report within 5 days.

[BigJ]

I had one of those C&R things once, and the language is not clear, but like I said what Mad is proposing can be found illegal.

I disagree. On this point, its quite clear.

Q: Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics?

No. A collector’s license only enables the collector to transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and to make disposition of curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, to any other licensee, for the period stated on the license. A collector’s license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector brings the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer, he shall qualify as such. A dealer’s license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a)(1), 27 CFR 478.41(c)(d)]

Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

[27 CFR 478.11]

I'm not a lawyer, but a well versed one summarized all that for me by saying you're golden if you are buying them for your "personal collection of firearms". Buy them for any other reason, and you're asking for a world of potential hurt.

YMMV.

Edit: Source http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curi...s.html#dealers

[paul0660]

That is what I remember, Jake, and I don't find it clear.

and to make disposition of curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce,

with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

You proved my point. Mad, I would not do it.

[paul0660]

I disagree. On this point, its quite clear.

I'm not a lawyer, but a well versed one summarized all that for me by saying you're golden if you are buying them for your "personal collection of firearms". Buy them for any other reason, and you're asking for a world of potential hurt.

YMMV.

Edit: Source http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curi...s.html#dealers

a well versed one

Most lawyers are well versed. Many, bags of hot gas. All will take your money with your interests second to theirs.

[BigJ]

That is what I remember, Jake, and I don't find it clear. You proved my point. Mad, I would not do it.

Fair enough. I don't mean to tell you what should be clear to you, or not. Perhaps it was the context of the conversation with the lawyer I consulted in general that provided me with the clarity I think I see in the words.

Either way, I think we agree... Mad, don't do it.

PS: Its Jason by the way

[BigJ]

Most lawyers are well versed. Many, bags of hot gas. All will take your money with your interests second to theirs.

True that. In this case though, he would have made more off me by saying "yeeahh sure go for it and if there's a problem we'll fight in in court." He didn't, and with your accurate comments in mind, that tells me all I need to know.