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  • Nihonto Chicken
    Member
    • Jul 2009
    • 454

    Help out a bro?

    Edit: If interested, see #21 for new pics.

    So, I drop into a local gun shoppe just to see what's what, and on my way out I spy what appears to be an old 1911 Colt hiding in the shadows, as it turns out with possibly a reasonable price tag affixed. Here's a composite of the quicky photos I took:



    Now I don't know very much about collectible military 1911s, certainly not all the types of original parts and their unique configurations and marks. Sorry for the poor pics, but this example appears to be in original black oxide finish with about 70% remaining (maybe better on the slide and upper frame with more thinning on the grip straps) with about a dozen or so scattered light rust spots of around a millimeter in diameter. The serial number is 292xxx, the owner indicated a 1918 manufacture date. The hammer appears to possibly be a replacement as its finish is darker than the rest of the gun (also the trigger and mag release button escutcheon?). I didn't field strip it, but noted the barrel chamber is marked (seen through the ejection port) with a small P and a small H, while the frame is marked near the disconnector with a small H and a small W. There is a stamp on the frame left side behind the trigger of a stylized co-joined J and M inside a G. The two-tone magazine is unmarked.

    What would be a decent price, assuming the hammer and perhaps the barrel and some other small parts are replacements? If I do get to field strip it, what should I look for, and is there a way to tell whether the hammer is indeed a replacement or not without disassembling the gun further? TIA for your help!
    Last edited by Nihonto Chicken; 03-14-2012, 6:14 PM. Reason: Reference new pics.
    "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~ C. S. Lewis
  • #2
    littlejake
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2008
    • 2168

    The serial Number is definitely a 1918 Colt according to Clawson's book. JMG is Lt Colonel John M Gilbert, Army Inspector of ordinance for that period Colt. P is a proof mark. H is a provisional inspection mark for Francis L Hosmer. There a many little variations in the knurling of the slide stop, hammer spur, magazine latch, et cetera that have to be compared to have a 100% correct 1911. Clawson's book has gone astronomical in price. The later editions have a CD with detailed photos of most aspects of the 1911 service pistol throughout it revision history. Although it might be difficult to prove you have the pistol's original hammer; one could certainly verify if it were correct to the gun.

    It' looks pretty good from the photos you have -- I'd say it would be a steal at $800 and is more likely worth in the neighborhood of $1800.
    Life Member NRA and 2A Foundation.
    My posts are my own opinions and do not reflect those of any organization I am a member of.
    Nothing I post should be construed as legal advice; if you need legal advice, see a lawyer.

    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
    William Pitt (1759-1806)

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    • #3
      bruceflinch
      I need a LIFE!!
      • Jan 2006
      • 40127

      Looks like a pretty nice specimen. No apparent holster wear. In the Pics, it appears the hammer & trigger look the same shade. Don't know anything about them in particular.

      What was the asking price?
      Have you compared on Gunbroker, etc?
      Actually I only started collecting Milsurps 3 years ago. I think I might own about 24...They're cheaper than guns that will most likely never get the opportunity to kill somebody...

      I belong to the group that uses firearms, and knows which bathroom to use.

      Tis better to have Trolled & lost, Than to never have Trolled, at all.

      Secret Club Member?.

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      • #4
        littlejake
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2008
        • 2168

        BTW -- 1918 Colt's were being rushed through production because the war in Europe was ending and contracts would be cancelled. The finish is not black oxide -- it's actually a bluing. But, because of the hurried process it looks black; and it does tend to wear easily.
        Life Member NRA and 2A Foundation.
        My posts are my own opinions and do not reflect those of any organization I am a member of.
        Nothing I post should be construed as legal advice; if you need legal advice, see a lawyer.

        "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
        William Pitt (1759-1806)

        Comment

        • #5
          Nihonto Chicken
          Member
          • Jul 2009
          • 454

          Originally posted by littlejake
          It' looks pretty good from the photos you have -- I'd say it would be a steal at $800 and is more likely worth in the neighborhood of $1800.
          Originally posted by bruceflinch
          Looks like a pretty nice specimen. No apparent holster wear. In the Pics, it appears the hammer & trigger look the same shade. Don't know anything about them in particular.

          What was the asking price?
          Have you compared on Gunbroker, etc?
          Been looking at the closed auctions on GB, seems the darker hammer, trigger, escutcheon and sometimes safety are typical for this year production. My best guess now is that it's all or mostly original, note the lack of wear on the barrel (which seems to be original), I don't think the gun was ever shot enough to break or wear anything out. The GB examples in similar shape that actually sold seem to have gone for a bit below to somewhat over $2k. The asking price is a few hundred less than that, thinking I'll offer 10% under the ask and see what happens. Man, am I risking a SWMBO whupping here! Time for "creative finance", I may have to sell off a toy or two pronto and hope to replace the funds before getting caught out. Hey, Jon Corzine seems to be getting away with it, why not me?!!!
          "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~ C. S. Lewis

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          • #6
            GOEX FFF
            ☆ North Texas ☆
            CGN Contributor
            • Jun 2007
            • 7099

            The grips are also correct Colt manufactured, noted by the 15 rows of checkering between diamond points.
            Looks like an all correct piece for 1918.

            As littlejake mentioned, production of field gear and arms were sped up in 1918, so finding an original 1918 dated leather holster, is fairly easy too.
            Last edited by GOEX FFF; 01-23-2012, 5:05 AM.
            Stand for the Flag - Kneel for the Cross

            The 2nd Amendment Explained

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            • #7
              littlejake
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2008
              • 2168

              BTW -- that 2 tone magazine alone is worth $100 bucks.
              Last edited by littlejake; 01-23-2012, 11:34 AM.
              Life Member NRA and 2A Foundation.
              My posts are my own opinions and do not reflect those of any organization I am a member of.
              Nothing I post should be construed as legal advice; if you need legal advice, see a lawyer.

              "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
              William Pitt (1759-1806)

              Comment

              • #8
                Nihonto Chicken
                Member
                • Jul 2009
                • 454

                Thx!

                Thanks to all for the feedback. I made an offer, the shop has to contact the owner (consignment sale) to see whether it's a go. I'll find out tomorrow. If it works out, it won't be a steal, but a decent buy, I think (I hope!).
                "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~ C. S. Lewis

                Comment

                • #9
                  Nihonto Chicken
                  Member
                  • Jul 2009
                  • 454

                  It's a go ...

                  Offer accepted, deposit made, paperwork started, took the handgun safety test (haven't bought one in years), but the shop is out of handgun safety cards and indicates it can't start the 10 day clock until they come in from the State, so jail time will be extended. Oh, well.
                  "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~ C. S. Lewis

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    morrcarr67
                    I need a LIFE!!
                    • Jul 2010
                    • 15030

                    Originally posted by Nihonto Chicken
                    Offer accepted, deposit made, paperwork started, took the handgun safety test (haven't bought one in years), but the shop is out of handgun safety cards and indicates it can't start the 10 day clock until they come in from the State, so jail time will be extended. Oh, well.
                    Well that's good and bad.

                    Good he took the offer

                    Bad he took the offer
                    Yes you can have 2 C&R 03 FFL's; 1 in California and 1 in a different state.

                    Originally posted by Erion929

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      WW2Buff
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2007
                      • 1327

                      Great buy! I'm envious.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        RazzB7
                        Veteran Member
                        • Jul 2011
                        • 3419

                        That's a beautiful example of american workmanship! Congratulations!
                        Originally posted by Conan the Barbarian
                        Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing
                        Originally posted by MrsRazz
                        I don't wish to be known as a set of tits behind a gun.

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                        • #13
                          Nihonto Chicken
                          Member
                          • Jul 2009
                          • 454

                          Now for the wait ...

                          Thanks guys for the positive vibes. When I get it in my hot little hands, I'll try to post some better pics for those who may be interested (which will probably inspire someone to identify a major incorrect part and burst my bubble, oh, well ).

                          This is the most I've ever paid for a collectible firearm without having the necessary knowledge to justify the purchase, kind of a leap of faith, which we all know goes unrewarded more often than not. Well, hey, it just "spoke to me". Which is more than my wife will do when I come clean on this acquisition.

                          I'm not a big 1911 freak, but have always had in the back of my mind how neat it would be to have an early example. I am sort of a JMB freak, but more for his shotguns. Either way, it's kind of a way of being able to reach back into the past to touch and appreciate bedrock genius.

                          BTW, I don't have the Big $$$ Book on 1911s, and am not likely to get it, as I think this is the only collectible example I'm likely to acquire. So can I impose on someone who does have one? I'd be interested in the approximate month this 1911 was manufactured. Serial number is 292xxx, which I'm guessing is earlier in the year from what I've seen up for grabs on GB. TIA!
                          "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~ C. S. Lewis

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                          • #14
                            Rogerbutthead
                            Veteran Member
                            • Jul 2006
                            • 3844

                            Clawson's book (copyright 1993) on page 385 regarding Military Sales states in part:

                            Shipping Date Approximate serial range total Destination
                            May 9th 1918 289301-293000 3,600 commanding officer, Springfield Armory
                            May 13th 1918 292000-298000 4,800 " ", " "

                            Earlier on page 379 under Appendix A Automatic Pistol, Cal. .45 Model of 1911 it states in part:

                            Serial Numbers Quanity
                            1918 233601-580600 Colt 347,000

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                            • #15
                              Nihonto Chicken
                              Member
                              • Jul 2009
                              • 454

                              Thank you for the info, much appreciated!
                              "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~ C. S. Lewis

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