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**eighteenninetytwo** · 03-23-2011, 1:53 PM

Also it would be FAAAARRR easier to take the internals from a pb gun and fit them into a replica BP rifle.

**Nodda Duma** · 03-23-2011, 3:59 PM

That would be AWESOME for reenactment!! Let's do Waterloo...

**Super Spy** · 03-23-2011, 4:41 PM

Sounds like your asking for Simunition...this already exits...mostly. Simunition are special ammo that's chambers in your regular weapon and fires a paintball as a projectile. Your weapon will even cycle. I'm actually a bit fuzzy on the details but the link below will answer any questions. My buddy, an LEO says it's a good time. He recently joined here, though so far it seems all he does is lurk occasionally.

Simunition - Training for the Real World

http://www.simunition.com/

**ElvinWarrior** · 03-23-2011, 7:15 PM

Bob,

Thanks for the heads up !!! That's an interesting toy you have there, fires powder charges ya say??? Hmmm...

Well, If'in its not too expensive, I may pick one up, jes fer a funnin with...

But... I'ma BP man, thru n thru... I really wana pour the powder, seat the charge, ram the ball, prime the pan... I get more fun outa loadin the damn thing than a firin it !!!

As far as the teen kids, being able to participate, I think there would be civic/sport minded adult participants that could find clever legal ways for the kids to sidestep some of that, legally. For example, an adult member shows up, with a small folding table at the set-up registration/instruction table area, have set up a few baskets... In the baskets are some plain white little miniature envelopes, lots, and lots and lots of them... In the evelopes is a small clear plastic baggie, with the zip seal tops, and in that baggie is either a 3Gr charge of 3Fg BP, or, using the low grade, low power Prop Gun Blank BP charge of the prop gun blank powder at 6Gr. Inside the little white envelope, is another small plastic baggie, containing a 1/2 teaspoon dallop of plain, cheap crisco vegitable grease. Inside the little evelope are also, two plain white cotton balls, a standard medium/large ball patch, and a third little baggie, that contains either a second charge of powder, for the flash pan, or, one of the little red plastic caps... It would be a sort of envelope bandolier, containing all the propellant/lubricant needs for one BP/PB charge. There would be a "Donations" jar set up on the table, suggested donation per envelope... 5 or 10 cents... If the kid didn't have the lousy ten cents, he can load up with a few handfulls for free. Nobody is SELLING the charges, they are FREE, and if they wish to give a DONATION, to help with the costs, well, that's appreciated, but NOT REQUIRED. And... being, a one-load, one-shot hobby... And, it takes TIME to load the guns, that would SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the powder needs for an afternoon of FUN !!!

Heck, If'in I were a runnin the "Free Samples" table, to promote my BP/PB business interests... I would also have set up on the
table, a selection of paintball jars, the 500/Balls per jar ones, in the various calibers, clearly marked, lids open, with a sign, inviting people to pick up a couple handfulls of "Sample Balls", for FREE.... Because... I am using this opportunity to promote my business interests, as a businessman, to encourage people to become involved with re-enactment BP/PB Games !!!

Now... onto the fact that it does take time to load Muzzle Loaders... Well guy, that's PART of the fun, these guys that go to these muzzle loader re-enactments all deal with that issue just fine, it's part of all the FUN... I don't see a problem with that aspect of it at all !!! Now... if we are dealing with old west, and civil war re-enactments, there are tons of the old six-shooter replica prop guns out there, and... obviously, they would all be set up to load a fire a 6 shot cylinder with paint balls... Those guns would probably all need to be re-bored, to the smallest Paintball caliber, of 40 Cal... But that would not be a biggie... Hell... I myslef am thinking this could be a great little cottage industry for alot of BP hobbyist gunsmithers out there, modifying these guns for PB use, and offering them for sale for a modest profit. Might even turn into a real industry with a real company, in a few years time.... YA NEVER KNOW right?

Eighteen,

You seem to be missing the boat here... I don't want a Co2 powered semi-automatic or fully automatic gun that looks llike a 1866 Winchester Yellow Boy.... I want a Sharps Muzzle loader, that looks, feels, ACTS like a Sharps Muzzle Loader !!!

Get it now????

Nodda....

Waterloo ya say????

I Guess I could piece up something for that, Maybee as a French Scout... Or something.... Ya... That'll work!!!

Alot, and I do mean ALOT of these re-enactment "model" guns can be purchased, very cheaply, from an online source known as "Armory". They have, a French Military flintlock musket, WITH a bayonette, AND it has a WORKING flintlock mechanism, working flint jaws, working frizzen pan, working trigger, that does Spark the flint, and if the pan is primed, does go "poofff!!!", which is where most movie/stage/re-enactment people leave off... They don't go the extra mile to drill a flash hole, load in a micro charge of powder, and blast out a patched paint ball, like what I am proposing here. But really, I don't see any difficult barriers to sucessfully completing those modifications to those prop guns at all. Anyways... You can have that VERY ACCURATE reproduction gun for around $86.00/$150.00 bux, with a full wooden stock, all metal parts, and all metal barrel, INCLUDING the bayonette and ramrod... So... picking up a re-enactment French Flinter Carbine, will be NO PROBLEM for me !!! Many of the Flint/Percussion single shot pistols can be had for less than $30.00 bux a pop !!!

Set the date and time, get the crowd to show up....

I'd Be There !!!!

SuperSpy....

Ummmm.... No, I wasn't asking questions about if there are modern PB Guns that fire like real guns, I allready knew that there are such guns...

MY QUESTION was....

Do you guys think that these stage/prop guns would be SAFE if modified to fire a small micro charge of BP, say 3 Grains...

I wanted some advice about the SAFETY of firing 3 Grains of BP out of these kinds of toy guns that were not initially designed to handle a charge of any kind at all...

Of the FOUR (4) responses so far... Nobody has ventured an oppinion on my basic question yet....

Have Fun Guys...

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David

**olhunter** · 03-24-2011, 6:56 AM

Doubt it would work. Paintballs are pretty fragile. Bust one ball loading and you have paint in your powder. Now you have to clean it and do it again and then you bust another ball and start over. PITA. Not to mention that the burning powder will melt the ball before it gets out. Even if it doesn't melt it to the point of collapse, it will have a flat or burned spot on it and it will fly crazy. Who wants to spend 5 minutes loading one ball that shoots 8 feet to the left?

**ElvinWarrior** · 03-24-2011, 9:05 AM

Dolk,

There are already, ignition charge propelled paint ball guns on the market, they are California legal, and allowed. In fact, these types of paintball guns are extensively used by police departments for training and crime enactment training of their recruits. Nothing illegal about a small ignition to propell the paintball at all. The problems I think, would come in with the teen kids, who love this sport to death... Getting around the powder thing because they are not 18 yet could be a real barrier to this kind of an approach really taking off, at least for the underage market... who are, the most avid supporters of this sport at this time.

OlHunter...

Ditto, ditto, see the above response... but, in addition to what that says, I have been discussing this with several paintballers in several forums. The general consensus is, that it probably will work, and work really well. There are already in existance many different types of ignition propelled paintball guns out there, the paintballs are a bit hardier than you think. The paintballs are made from a pliable plastic, and in fact bounce about the existing barrels because of sloppy manufacturing tolerances in the balls themselves. I suggested wadding and ball patches all throughout the article, this would protect the surface of the balls greatly from any damage that might occur from the heat and flame of the small micro charge... Which is apparently, the exact design method used by the existing ignition fired paintball guns out there. The only differance here, is that, these would be BP versions of these kinds of guns, which don't exist yet, and this is basicallly a BP forum, we like all the fuss and bother of the BP approach. Loading times, slowness of re-fires are all part of the fun of our sport. This is NOT INTENDED to be an alternative to existing paintball tech... Those guys love their fully automatic machine gun paintball guns, something nobody is allowed to have in the real world, they go for the full auto blast and bang bang... BP people look at the gunning sport from a whole different point of view. This suggestion, is to introduce to the BP community, a special adaptation of this sport, to them, so they can enjoy paintballing THEIR WAY... You are overlooking one very important point here, these paintballs are notoriously innacurate to begin with, because of the sloppy tolerances they use. Hand fitting a ball, with a patch, which is more pliable and more forgiving than you seem to realize, will insure a SNUG fit into the barrel... something that DOES NOT OCCUR in these fully automatic paintball guns at all... Those paint balls are litterally bouncing around inside the barrels... In the case of the BP version, with a patched fitted BP ball, the accuracy of each shot would be AMAZINGLY IMPROVED... Enough I think, to gain the notice of the rest of the PB community with a.... "HEY.... Those guys are ONTO SOMETHING HERE !!! They HIT what they AIM AT EVERYTIME... In ONE SHOT... We spray 20 balls with our full autos, and miss with every one !!!"

Think about it a tad...

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David

**ElvinWarrior** · 03-24-2011, 9:08 AM

Bp B...

Okay, fine, so I overbore the barrels, a teency lil bit, and pressure in a thin steel liner, no biggie with that one. If necessary, I will have thin seamless steel, or stainless steel liners custom manufactured for me, I just really need the stock tubes, in the 4 standard calibers, all the rest is simple machine boring work. We are talking patched ball smooth bores here, with the muzzle loading single shots, and, a slightly different approach with the revolvers... I have more tech details myself, that I haven't presented yet, I am further along on this than stated here.

With the teens, you have a point... working mentally on how to deal with that one, don't have a final answer yet. I think however, I have an approach that may work, but I need to do some more research on that one.

Some of the approaches I am considering are, not using BP at all, using a substitute propellant that would not violate any laws, such as a very fast burning pyrotechnical rocket fuel, in pellet form. very simple, one pill, one fire, correct propellant amount, no measuring, not an explosive, a rocket fuel, similar to what estes makes and sells for their model rockets... It is legal for the kids to buy those rockets, and legal to sell them to them... The rocket pellets, even if the kids deliberately piled a handfull down the barrel, to attempt a "Big Bang", don't burn fast enough to go off all at once, most of them would just be blown out the end of the barrel and scattered across the field, it would be impossible to result in a dangerous overload with that propellant.

That's just ONE approach I am looking at. A similar approach could be used for the flintlock primer pans, just use a tiny amount of the rocket fuel in powder form.

I already have the ignition caps down pat, that one is a done deal, cheap, reliable, all done on that one.

Flints... Haven't discussed this one at all in the forum... Not going to use natural flints at all, too unreliable... I am going to manufacture man made flint substitutes, similar to the zippo flints. They will nearly be "forever flints", Theywill spark reliably, every single time, on badly made flintlock mechanisms, they will shower down a thunderstorm of excessive sparks, in such abundance that an ignition is garaunteed with every hammer strike, They will be bright red in color, and they will last at least a year or two, reliably, firing and sparking every single time. They will be VASTLY superior to natural flints in every single way. And, they will be cheap as hell, a buck a flint and be pre padded with a small strip of simple black padded leatherette glued over the top and around the back, no need for hand fit flint leather.

And thank you SINCERELY for you commentary and your perspectives, your input has been invaluable to me with this project.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka.. Dave

**ElvinWarrior** · 03-24-2011, 10:34 AM

Bp B

I think I have seen those cannons someplace online, don't remember them... Please re-read my other post, I have re-formatted and re-done it again, there are more details and information included now.

I must, however, get busy with other things today, I do have a shop to run, and orders to fill, and the maddening matter of coinage to occupy my time with.

Sincerely

ElvinWarrior... aka David

**metalliman545** · 03-25-2011, 8:42 AM

Gayyyyyy. Would not buy, would actually laugh and make fun of someone for buying and reenacting with one.

**Asphodel** · 03-25-2011, 4:08 PM

David,

Back around 50-60-ish years ago, there was a bit of a fad for 'sport duelling', in which the participants followed the traditions of the 'code duello', with pistols (single shot, flint or caplock, and smooth-bore, were the requirements for 'traditional' duelling-pistols, per the code)

The difference between illegal and potentially deadly real duelling and harmless (except to one's ego) 'sport duelling' was the use of cast paraffin wax pistol-balls, rather than lead, and, of course, a very light charge of powder.

Walter Winans, a famous pistol shooter of many years ago, wrote an article about 'sport duelling' for the American Rifleman magazine......I vaguely remember finding and reading it in an old Rifleman, but can't remember even which year of that magazine it was in.

I think you've an excellent idea, but there would be one caveat.......you would have to require all participants to be absolutely certain that they did not bring any 'real' lead musket or pistol balls to the event grounds, as inadvertantly loading a leaden ball in the 'excitement' of the event could result in tragedy.

cheers

Carla

**Dr. Peter Venkman** · 03-25-2011, 5:59 PM

Originally posted by Asphodel

I think you've an excellent idea, but there would be one caveat.......you would have to require all participants to be absolutely certain that they did not bring any 'real' lead musket or pistol balls to the event grounds, as inadvertantly loading a leaden ball in the 'excitement' of the event could result in tragedy.

cheers

Carla

Which is precisely why is not a good idea and is in fact a very stupid one.

**ElvinWarrior** · 03-25-2011, 7:58 PM

Asphodel, and Dr. Venkman

Thanks for the vote of confidence !!! This idea is evolving, I have totally abandoned the idea of using actual gunnery quality BP in these re-enactment types of Paintball guns. I am now in negotiations with a major producer of hobbyist rocket propellants, to negotiate with them, to produce for me and my partners, a custom formula of pelletized solid rocket propellant that has additives to produce a small flame flash, a billow of smoke, and smell a bit like gunpowder, but not be gunnery powder at all. It will not be an explosive or detonation type of mix at all, but rather a very fast burning modified pryotechnical rocket propellant instead, making it legal for minors to purchase, and adults to sell to minors. The design of the formula, will by inherant burning characteristics, limit the power of the charge. The pellets will simply burn too slowly to produce enough thrust to propell anything out of a barrel at anything near a dangerous velocity. A teen could, attempt to deliberately overcharge a barrel, by stacking in multiple fuel pellets, one on top of each other. But that would be useless, one and a half, maybee two, of the pellets would ignite and burn, the rest would be blown out the barrel and scattered across the field harmlessly. The kid would then realize he had wasted a handfull of perfectly good propellant pellets, and would never attempt that trick again. I think we would need some sort of ruling, to require persons to only use the propellant pellets, that actual gunnery powder or pellets were not allowed.

In the case of the more modern reproduction guns, cartridge guns, we would manufacture simulation cartridges, made from stiff plastic, that had a brass metalized coating, the cartridges would contain, within them, the propellant pellet, sealed inside. The paintball balls, will also be custom manufactured for us, they will be conicals, not balls, with a somewhat thicker outer shell, and a thicker bottom that has a slightly modified formula on the bottom part. The bottom of the paintball conical would be a substance that was somewhat waxy, and being thicker, would protect the paintball from damage from the propellant flame and heat. It would also serve a dual purpose, as a barrel lubricant.

I think, these two modifications would bring the safety issues under control.

As a side note, the cartridges would be re-loadable, just like real cartridges, they could be re-loaded perhaps 30 to 40 times before they warped or wore out and needed to be replaced. These items would then be, additional items, the company would sell, increasing our revenues.

Remember Kids !!! Only use RELLIABLE, Genuine, "Realistic Paintball Company" products in your ignition paintball guns !!! We cannot garauntee the safety and performance of your precision guns if you use outside manufactured products in them !!!

We are also going to install, in all guns, a thin stainless steel barrel liner, that has been etched with a spiral pattern, to increase the strength of the barrel, insure the temperatures are kept below the melting point of the internal surface of the barrel, and increase the accuracy of the guns.

Close your eyes for a moment, and imagine the advertising videos released on our web page and other video distribution services, such as YouTube. Two teams of boys, one team armed with the traditional gas powered guns, one with our ignition systems guns. The kids with the gas powered guns fire wildly, missing most of what they point at, most of the time. The kids with our ignition guns, have realistic oversized ammunition clips, much larger than is legal for actual guns, fire their guns with barrels blazing blasts of small orange flames, puffs of smoke, a LOUD "RAT-A-TAT-TAT" THUNDERING away, there is the scent of gunpowder in the air, EVERYWHERE. Their very reallistic mechanisms clicking and chinking and sliding back and forth wildly, their spent plastic cartridge casings streaming out of their ejection ports, flying to the air, and bouncing all around them on the ground... And, AND, they HIT what they aim at, RELIABLY...

We won't be able to ship these puppies fast enough !!!!

We may even do a re-inactment of the very famous scene from "Home Alone", with a very cute and angelic young boy, pointing his replica Thompson Sub-Machine Gun, WITH the drum magazine, pointed at one of his cowering young friends, firing away at his lil buddy, yelling at him... "Die you Filthy ANIMAL !!!" We pan the camera to a close up of the boy who is splattered with paintball paint, he looks down at the dripping gel all over himself, looks towards his friend in utter amazement, and looks enviously at his friends Machine Gun, announcing... "I gotta get ME one of THOSE !!!"

LOL !!!

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David

**Dutch3** · 03-25-2011, 8:17 PM

If you try to make it safe, a kid will find a way around it.

When I was young, we would take our rolls of paper caps out to the curb and smash them with a hammer, as that was more reliable and satisfying than using our cap guns. We ended up with smashed and blackened fingers and ringing ears, but somehow we survived.

Then there was that time with the margarine tub, a tube of Bangsite and the glow plug from a Cox .049...Shock and awe, baby!

**ElvinWarrior** · 03-25-2011, 9:26 PM

Dutch,

There is only so much a manufacturer can do. If someone is hell bent on blowing themselves up, there is very little a manufacturer can do to prevent that.

These kids could, if they wanted to, custom load the simulation cartridges, ahead of time, with actual real gunpowder, there would be no way to detect that, until after the gun went Ka-Blewie, pieces of their replication gun went flying in all directions, and this injured kid is laying on the ground screaming his head off...

Things like this sometimes happen...

How is that the manufactures fault? How can that be prevented?

Heck, every year, a couple kids get hit in the chest with baseballs as they are waiting for a pitch, and drop dead, every year, a couple kids end up permenantly injured from football incidents, a couple times a year, kids get lost out in the wilderness, sometimes they are not ever found...

There is NO SPORTING endeavor or activity that is completely SAFE, NONE !!!

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David

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