WTK: Can a CA resident w/C&R receive C&R long guns direct?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Interesting; my ATF agent said that I cannot sell a handgun to ANY California resident unless they're a dealer FFL (not a C&R). I've actually turned down 2-3 sales because of that advice. It wouldn't be the first time ATF's ever given out incorrect information, but they ARE the ones who will arrest me and shut down my business if they don't like what I'm doing.

In light of that, I think I'm going to write a letter to ATF asking for an official determination. I have NO desire to turn down any legal sales, but I have even less desire to have a pyrrhic victory over the issue.

Here is the text of the section of California law that says it's OK for C&R FFL's to acquire C&R handguns while they are travelling out of state. You might want to include it in your letter to ATF asking for an official determination.

Section 12072(f)(3) -Where a person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, whose licensed premises are within this state, acquires a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person that is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, outside of this state, takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports that firearm into this state, within five days of that licensed collector transporting that firearm into this state, he or she shall report to the department in a format prescribed by the department his or her acquisition of that firearm.

So you see, it's perfectly legal. It's interesting that your ATF agent said otherwise. Even if it was illegal under California law (which it is not), out of state FFL's are only required by Federal law to comply with California law when dealing with unlicensed Californians.

[Pthfndr]

Interesting; my ATF agent said that I cannot sell a handgun to ANY California resident unless they're a dealer FFL (not a C&R).

Mike

Sounds like it was just a lack of clarification between the ATF person and yourself concerning the term "sell".

Lots of people hear the word sell and think you as a dealer are handing /shipping the handgun directly to the buyer. Which of course in your state is legal to do with a resident of your state.

You can "sell" a handgun to a CA resident legally. But it has to be transfered to a CA 01 FFL dealer first. A CA resident cannot take possesion of a MODERN handgun directly from you. That's part of what I refered to in my earlier post.

A CA resident with a 03 C&R license can only take possesion of a C&R handgun directly from you at YOUR place of business.

Just to throw in another twist where a C&R is concerned. There are many firearms, both long guns and handguns, that are less than 50 years old, that are listed in the C&R book provided to C&R license holders. You can also legally sell any of those firearms to a CA resident with a C&R license as long as it's done at your place of business.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

A CA resident with a 03 C&R license can only take possesion of a C&R handgun directly from you at YOUR place of business.

Just to throw in another twist where a C&R is concerned. There are many firearms, both long guns and handguns, that are less than 50 years old, that are listed in the C&R book provided to C&R license holders. You can also legally sell any of those firearms to a CA resident with a C&R license as long as it's done at your place of business.

Just to clarify, Federal law considers a gunshow in an FFL's same state to be a tempory extension of his licensed premises and place of business.

[prebans]

Let's just say that it isn't the first time I've been told the wrong thing by someone in power.

Thank you for those clarifications. I will send out a letter for clarification early next week.

Mike

[icormba]

Let's just say that it isn't the first time I've been told the wrong thing by someone in power.

Thank you for those clarifications. I will send out a letter for clarification early next week.

Mike

Hope you don't get discouraged from all our crazy laws Mike! I for one would jump at a chance to purchase a Nagant for $49 shipped with my 03FFL!

[Zwingli]

There are many firearms, both long guns and handguns, that are less than 50 years old, that are listed in the C&R book provided to C&R license holders. You can also legally sell any of those firearms to a CA resident with a C&R license as long as it's done at your place of business.

Thanks Pthfndr, didn't think about that wrinkle!

So basically you'll have to explain this to the martians as to how its reasonable:

I have to drive to your house across the border (which in some instances my be little more than a few min) and then I can get all the C&R stuff I can fit into Santa's sack and cash and carry it. But I can't have it mailed to my house (unless it meets certain requirements). by which route it may take several days to get.

see its all clear!

Oh and on the SKS thing no detachable mag ones (I think those were a more modern manufacture for export from China anyway? clarification anyone)

And on the C&R pistol thing--ya you would be missing out on buss. p-38s. nagant revolvers and cz-52s etc are rather popular in Cali becuase of that. California even has a way for us Californians to register them for when we bring them back in--how nice of them

And P PS. I wouldn't be suprised if the ATF agent gave you wrong info on that because it totally has to do with California state law and very very secondary to what he/she is trained in especially if they're not working in CA.

[hoffmang]

prebans,

Everything else here about C&R is basically correct. As to your NFA question, the reality is that very few counties in CA will allow any NFA items in. Not only does a CA resident or C&R holder need the county LEO to agree, but they need the CA DOJ to agree and that's very rare. The only true NFA folks are the Hollywood permitees and you can ask for their CA DOJ permits as proof that they can deal in NFA.

Beyond that (and as a person who is about to receive his 03 FFL) please deal with us on everything else.

-Gene

[Zwingli]

Oh and another funny thing. I can show my 03ffl and buy a cz-52 in South Lake Tahoe and receive it that second. In North Lake Tahoe I would have to have a background check, show proof of identity, proof of residence, have my finger prints taken, fill out a DROS, pay 35 to sometimes 50 dollars in extra fees, and then have to wait ten days to pick up my nice cz-52.

Another funny thing. I can go to my local gun store and buy a World War Two enfield and I would have to have a background check, show proof of identity, proof of residence, have my finger prints taken, fill out a DROS, pay 35 to sometimes 50 dollars in extra fees, and then have to wait ten days to pic up my nice enfield. Or I can call someone in another State and have it shipped to my door (overnight if I want to pay) and only have to pay the shipping.

[Pthfndr]

Thanks Pthfndr, didn't think about that wrinkle!

A perfect example of this is the Colt Woodsman I bought in AZ last year on vacation. The ATF had ammended the C&R list to include ALL Colt Woodsman models up to 1978 (which I think was the last year of production).

The shop I found it at wasn't going to sell it to me at first since I was from CA even though I had a copy of my C&R for them. I had printed out the page from the ATF's online ammended list and showed it to them. The manager made a quick call to the ATF. They told him it was good to go and 10 minutes later I walked out the door with it for $200.

[prebans]

Hope you don't get discouraged from all our crazy laws Mike! I for one would jump at a chance to purchase a Nagant for $49 shipped with my 03FFL!

Being completely honest, about half a dozen of my fellow dealers have encouraged me to NOT offer ANYTHING into California. They say it's nuts trying to decipher CAL DOJ regs, worry over getting sued if your gun is misused (supposedly lawsuits against firearms dealers are more likely in CA), etc. I fully admit that CA's regs are more than a bit daunting. However, whether or not CA's anti-freedom contingent want to admit it, CA is still a state in the USA covered by the Second Amendment of the Constitution. A climate of fear only serves to nullify the Second Amendment through a lack of supply.

I'm not going along with that. I admit that I am going to start off slowly and ease myself into things, but I'm going to offer what I can.

Mike

[prebans]

Thanks Pthfndr, didn't think about that wrinkle!

So basically you'll have to explain this to the martians as to how its reasonable:

I have to drive to your house across the border (which in some instances my be little more than a few min) and then I can get all the C&R stuff I can fit into Santa's sack and cash and carry it. But I can't have it mailed to my house (unless it meets certain requirements). by which route it may take several days to get.

see its all clear!

Oh and on the SKS thing no detachable mag ones (I think those were a more modern manufacture for export from China anyway? clarification anyone)

And on the C&R pistol thing--ya you would be missing out on buss. p-38s. nagant revolvers and cz-52s etc are rather popular in Cali becuase of that. California even has a way for us Californians to register them for when we bring them back in--how nice of them

And P PS. I wouldn't be suprised if the ATF agent gave you wrong info on that because it totally has to do with California state law and very very secondary to what he/she is trained in especially if they're not working in CA.

Okay, I was under the assumption that only C&R SKS rifles were ok in CA.

To confirm, I may offer ANY SKS rifle in CA so long as it does NOT have a detachable magazine and does NOT have a grenade launcher...?

On the topic of ATF, let's just say that misunderstandings go beyond the state level.

Mike

[prebans]

prebans,

Everything else here about C&R is basically correct. As to your NFA question, the reality is that very few counties in CA will allow any NFA items in. Not only does a CA resident or C&R holder need the county LEO to agree, but they need the CA DOJ to agree and that's very rare. The only true NFA folks are the Hollywood permitees and you can ask for their CA DOJ permits as proof that they can deal in NFA.

Beyond that (and as a person who is about to receive his 03 FFL) please deal with us on everything else.

-Gene

If it's legal, I'll probably try to offer it.

As to NFA, as I understand CA's NFA laws you MAY have a MG or DD with some sort of state permit. Supposedly that won't happen; fair enough...

But you ARE allowed to have C&R SBRs, C&R SBS, and any AOW so long as they do not meet AW definitions, don't hold more than 10 rounds, and are not a "pen gun." I've yet to find a requirement for CAL DOJ or any other state approval for these- just the standard Form 1/Form 4 with CLEO signoff.

That isn't great, but it's better than nothing. (Incidentally, Hawaii is actually the worst state for NFA- they don't allow ANYTHING under ANY circumstances.)

Mike

[CAB]

The CA DOJ follows the BATFE C&R list. The 50 year old rule only applies to private party transfers in CA.

CAB

[prebans]

A perfect example of this is the Colt Woodsman I bought in AZ last year on vacation. The ATF had ammended the C&R list to include ALL Colt Woodsman models up to 1978 (which I think was the last year of production).

The shop I found it at wasn't going to sell it to me at first since I was from CA even though I had a copy of my C&R for them. I had printed out the page from the ATF's online ammended list and showed it to them. The manager made a quick call to the ATF. They told him it was good to go and 10 minutes later I walked out the door with it for $200.

Without naming names (and causing a lot of anger), not selling to or dealing with anyone from CA is a common FFL practice here in AZ. Too many folks are worried over trouble from CAL DOJ and fear NYC-style sting operations.

While profits are lost, it's nothing compared to a court case should one arise.

Mike

[prebans]

The CA DOJ follows the BATFE C&R list. The 50 year old rule only applies to private party transfers in CA.

CAB

Okay, so I may offer C&R long guns direct to CA C&R holders even if they're NOT 50 years old..?

Mike