WTK: Can a CA resident w/C&R receive C&R long guns direct?

[grammaton76]

Okay, guys. I understand the worry and concern, so it's probably proper for me to introduce myself.

My name is Mike Kwiatkowski. I live in Gold Canyon, Arizona and am a Type 01 FFL (dealer) with a Class III SOT (NFA dealer). I have all Arizona licenses required (AZ sales tax license as well as an occupancy permit) as well. In other words, I am a fully licensed business-- and I do apologize if I've confused anyone with my previous posts. I'm just asking because I'm VERY ignorant of CA law- I can quote NFA rules like nothing, but DROS just sounds like a model of foreign car to me!

Totally understandable, and now that THAT'S clear, I'm happy to see you around as a vendor.

My first offering (once I'm able to do so; I don't have 25 posts yet to use the classifieds) will be many multiple C&R Nagant rifles for 49.00 each shipped. (As you might imagine, these are shoter-grade rifles that are in need of cleaning, TLC, etc.) I've also got a bunch of used but not abused 10-round mags for that I'd like to sell.

Sounds very good. I'm not entirely sure if you can ship straight to a non-FFL in California, from Arizona. Although it's legal to buy face to face for 50+ year old rifles here, I think an 01 FFL wouldn't be able to ship interstate to a doorstep in CA unless the receiver has a C&R.

Thank you for your concern- and you're indeed right that ATF is cracking down on funny busines when it comes to unlicensed individuals doing gun sales as a business. I just want to expand my licensed business a little by offering CA-legal firearms and accessories to CA residents.

Sounds perfect to me. The biggest question for me, then, is: do you take faxes of C&R licenses?

grammaton76, you spoke of a $19 license fee. Do I as the out-of-state dealer need to file for a CA license to sell handguns into CA? Or is that something the buyer handles..?

Actually, it's all on the buyer. For handguns, either a C&R holder has to YOU (and buy it in person, then when they get back in CA, mail their $19 fee for handgun reg), or you can ship it to a cooperating transfer dealer.

Anyway, I'll PM you my phone number - if you have any "is this an assault weapon in CA" questions, I will be happy to answer those for you on an ongoing basis.

[prebans]

Pretty much not a possibility. I believe they tie DD to another almost-impossible-to-obtain-for-a-regular-guy license here (01 FFL I think?)

We're actually speaking of multiple different licenses from two different authorities for multiple purposes.

California has a special license that an individual must obtain to purchase a machinegun, large bore DD, or explosive DD. (While technically possible, it's my understanding that CAL DOJ is loathe to issue these licenses.) Interestingly enough, CA residents supposedly may purchase C&R SBR and C&R SBS but no non-C&R ones under any circumstances AND nothing that meets CA AWB definitions. AOWs are also okay so long as they're not "pen guns" and don't meet AW definitions. So little NFA ever goes into CA, but those are the rules as they're known to NFA dealers. (My original question was to whether the individual purchase license was as hard to obtain as I was told.)

On the Federal level, you're looking at different FFLs for importing, sales, and manufacturing. DDs are treated differently than other NFA weapons and actually have their own FFL class.

Type 01: The standard dealer's license allowing one to deal in Title I firearms other than DDs ($200 for first 3 years, $90 per 3 years after)
Type 02: Same as above but with pawnbroking rights ($200 for first 3 years, $90 per 3 years after)
Type 03: C&R ($30 every 3 years)
Type 07: The standard manufacturer's license allowing one to manufacture Title I firearms other than DDs ($150 every 3 years)
Type 08: Importer of firearms other than DDs ($150 every 3 years)
Type 09: Dealer in DDs and Title I guns ($3,000.00 every 3 years)
Type 10: Manufacturer of DDs and Title I guns ($3,000.00 every 3 years)
Type 11: Importer of DDs and Title I guns ($3,000.00 every 3 years)

Note that all importers and manufacturers may also act as dealers and do sales, transfers, etc.

Doing anything with all other NFA weapons (machineguns, silencers, short barreled rifles/shotguns, and AOWs) requires an additional TAX payment called a "Special Occupational Taxpayer" (SOT) on top of the FFL. It's simple to get under Federal rules (individual states may differ); it's just really a duck stamp on top of the FFL. Hand the feds the tax payment and you're good to go!

Class I SOT: Importer of NFA weapons other than DDs ($1,000 additional per year unless gross receipts below $500k; if so it falls to $500 per year)
Class II SOT: Manufacturer of NFA weapons other than DDs ($1,000 additional per year unless gross receipts below $500k; if so it falls to $500 per year
Class III SOT: Dealer of NFA weapons other than DDs ($500 per year)

The most common combinations are Type 01/Class III (dealer in Title I and II firearms except for DDs) and Type 07/Class II (manufacturer in Title I and II firearms except for DDs). Type 02/Class III (pawnbroker in Title I and II firearms except for DDs) are also relatively common in some areas of the country but not in others. You don't see too many SOT importers though they are around. DD guys are especially rare due to the costs involved (not to mention zoning issues- putting in a guy licensed to handle mortars and grenade launchers is a tall order in most areas of the country, gun friendly or not!)

HTH, but I apologize and will try to clarify further if I just muddied the waters even more.

Mike

[prebans]

Totally understandable, and now that THAT'S clear, I'm happy to see you around as a vendor.

Sounds very good. I'm not entirely sure if you can ship straight to a non-FFL in California, from Arizona. Although it's legal to buy face to face for 50+ year old rifles here, I think an 01 FFL wouldn't be able to ship interstate to a doorstep in CA unless the receiver has a C&R.

Sounds perfect to me. The biggest question for me, then, is: do you take faxes of C&R licenses?

Actually, it's all on the buyer. For handguns, either a C&R holder has to YOU (and buy it in person, then when they get back in CA, mail their $19 fee for handgun reg), or you can ship it to a cooperating transfer dealer.

Anyway, I'll PM you my phone number - if you have any "is this an assault weapon in CA" questions, I will be happy to answer those for you on an ongoing basis.

Thank you, but "vendor" sounds too professional/commercial. I'm just Mike and I happen to sell guns to keep eating.

Shipping any post-1898 manufacture firearm across state lines is generally illegal, CA or not. I figured I may have a smaller audience because not everyone has a C&R, but that's to be expected anywhere.

I welcome clear signed faxed copies. You now have my number in a return PM, and I'll be happy to accept one from you.

I don't follow that with the handgun..? I just ship it to a standard Type 01 and it's handled through them? (Or do I have to build the $19 into my price?)

Thank you for your phone number! I'm getting the idea that "if it's scary, don't ship it", but there are always exceptions to the rule. It's pretty much like the old national AWB but CA allows for bayo lugs..?

Mike

[grammaton76]

Good rundown. May I have your permission to butcher it and use it to update the FFL type rundown on TheGunWiki?

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/LegalFederal

[prebans]

Good rundown. May I have your permission to butcher it and use it to update the FFL type rundown on TheGunWiki?

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/LegalFederal

You may, but let me also go into other licenses and expand upon some that I mentioned earlier. (I'll see if I can dig up info on the discontinued ones as well.)

Type 06 allows you to manufacture ammo for firearms other than DD and AP. It costs $30 for 3 years.

Type 08 also allows one to import ammo except for DDs and AP

*Type 09 may or may not allow one to deal in ammo for DDs and AP. I'll call up one of my DD friends and ask if they know more.

Type 10 also allows you to manufacture ammo for DDs and AP

Type 11 also allows you to import ammo for DDs and AP

[grammaton76]

You may, but let me also go into other licenses and expand upon some that I mentioned earlier. (I'll see if I can dig up info on the discontinued ones as well.)

Neat. Actually, if you'd be interested, I'd be happy for you to just create a gunwiki account and edit the article yourself.

Naturally, if you'd rather not mess with it yourself, I'll be more than happy to do the paste / edit / layout work for you on the wiki. The primary interest I have, is in having the information available.

[mscales5]

Remember, a C&R license is not a license to "sell for profit". A C&R is a collectors license and only allows you to enhance your collections. Buying to resale requires a FFL no matter what the firearm is.

[grammaton76]

Remember, a C&R license is not a license to "sell for profit". A C&R is a collectors license and only allows you to enhance your collections. Buying to resale requires a FFL no matter what the firearm is.

Correctamundo... turns out the guy is actually an 01 FFL, looking to sell to C&R FFLs. Passes the "smell test" just fine; he's looking to basically do the same as Century, Interordnance, etc.

[prebans]

Okay, on to the SOTs that don't exist any more. The feds stopped issuing these SOTs as of Jan 01, 1988. It should be noted that they also raised the SOT rates from a minimum of $200/year to $500/year, which drastically dropped the number of SOTs in business.

Class IV (04): Importer of AOWs
Class V (05): Manufacturer or AOWs
Class VI (06): Dealer of AOWs

There was also a Type 04 and Type 05 FFL, but these were discontinued in the 1970s and I can't find the book that referenced them on this mess of a desk!

Mike

[prebans]

Neat. Actually, if you'd be interested, I'd be happy for you to just create a gunwiki account and edit the article yourself.

Naturally, if you'd rather not mess with it yourself, I'll be more than happy to do the paste / edit / layout work for you on the wiki. The primary interest I have, is in having the information available.

What the hey-- go ahead and create an account. I'll poke in and can help with editing now and again. My knowledge is mainly in the NFA arena, but I'll contribute as I can in other areas.

Take care,

Mike

[prebans]

Correctamundo... turns out the guy is actually an 01 FFL, looking to sell to C&R FFLs. Passes the "smell test" just fine; he's looking to basically do the same as Century, Interordnance, etc.

First time I've heard that..! There must be something to this "soap" bit.....

Mike

[grammaton76]

What the hey-- go ahead and create an account. I'll poke in and can help with editing now and again. My knowledge is mainly in the NFA arena, but I'll contribute as I can in other areas.

Actually, you'd create your own account. Follow the link below:

http://thegunwiki.com/TWiki/TWikiRegistration

Once you sign in, there'll be this helpful little button that says "Edit" at the top of the screen, which will let you edit articles in a script that's kinda like BBcode on forums. If you hit "Edit++", you'll see a "Word-like" WYSIWYG editor.

Don't worry about botching up articles or whatnot, that's what the history system is there for.

If an article gets too big and lopsided (i.e. FFL types) I do reserve the right to split 'em into two articles for clarity's sake... but, your info will still be there.

[Pthfndr]

I don't follow that with the handgun..? I just ship it to a standard Type 01 and it's handled through them? (Or do I have to build the $19 into my price?)

Mike

The $19 is nothing you need to deal with. If a CA resident holds an 03 C&R license and goes out of state - say to your place of business - and buys a handgun that's C&R elegible, when he/she gets back to CA they have to send in a form to the CA DOJ along with the $19.

You could sell that same C&R handgun to a CA C&R licensee, or even a non licensed person, and ship it. But it has to be shipped to a 01 FFL who would do the DROS/background check and charge the person their standard transfer fee.

All handgun transfers that take place within CA borders must go through a 01 FFL. C&R or not. All handguns transfered within / into CA borders must be registered with the CA DOJ. C&R or not.

The buyer pays all transfer / registration fees on his end one way or another.

The state WILL get their money and registration, one way or the other.

Hope that helps clarify things.

[Fate]

Remember, a C&R license is not a license to "sell for profit". A C&R is a collectors license and only allows you to enhance your collections. Buying to resale requires a FFL no matter what the firearm is.

Cant "sell for profit?"...I always sell the few C&Rs I sell at a profit. Anything less is dumb. It's what allows me to IMPROVE my collection. It's not my primary (or even secondary ) business and I don't sell that often.

But it's incorrect to say that you cannot charge more for the occasional firearm you sell than you paid for it. (I've heard people say this often). It's perfectly legal to make all the profit you possibly can. This is still America! You just can't be running a business selling lots and lots of firearms per year with an 03 FFL.

How many is too many? Dunno. I know several collectors who've sold over 75-100 per year without any problems. That sounds like a lot to me, the casual collector --I've sold less than a 10th of that-- but they've renewed and even been inspected with no hassles. Personally, I wouldn't do that level of turnover...but that's me.

[kenc9]

I think the term livelihood is one word that is used, but there is a total number that you are not supposed to go over and I believe it is 75 guns as I remember it.
Lots of guys buy whole collections to get what they want and sell the rest to build their collection.

When they say for profit they don't mean on a single gun they mean the only reason you buy and sell is for THE profit.

-ken