Need help evaluating and analyzing some really old guns

[caliguy93]

Friend of a friend asked me if I could help. he's got these two old guns he'd like to sell to help send his kid to college. He's looking for any information that can help as well as a possible value. Thanks

First one appears to be made by Springfield:





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Second one appears to be a Spencer model 1865 Carbine floating on gun broker at $2000 buy it now.. does that sound right?

[onelonehorseman]

Top one looks like a US M1873 trapdoor carbine 45-70 (actually 45-55). Probably ca about 1881 or so. It should be marked as such.

If it's marked and all there, maybe about $1500? There should be a saddle ring on the left side.

[caliguy93]

Top one looks like a US M1873 trapdoor carbine 45-70 (actually 45-55). Probably ca about 1881 or so. It should be marked as such.

If it's marked and all there, maybe about $1500? There should be a saddle ring on the left side.

ah thanks... I think it is an 1879 trapdoor carbine. but you were close!

[onelonehorseman]

The model should be stamped on the side plate, or on the gate.

[caliguy93]

The model should be stamped on the side plate, or on the gate.

oh maybe you are right... I am just going off pictures on gun broker but it now looks like any year can look that way... I will try to get model stamping

[onelonehorseman]

oh maybe you are right... I am just going off pictures on gun broker but it now looks like any year can look that way... I will try to get model stamping

I have one that the SN places it's production in 1881. The receiver is marked Model of 1873. They continued to make upgrades to the original model 1873 for a number of years before they actually changed the model year designation later in the 1880's.

[pitfighter]

Spencer saddle-ring is a nice one may be worth more than $2K

[AR22]

If the Springfield is a Custer era serial range and a real Carbine. It would be worth considerably more. What is the serial number on the Springfield?

In any case a real Carbine is worth quite a bit more than a long rifle. But there are a lot of fake Springfield Carbines out there though.

Date on the Breech Bolt is not a accurate way to date it. They could and have been changed by people over the years.. Actual serial number will date it.

I believe under 50,000 could possibly be a Custer range Carbine.

[Bainter1212]

Most trapdoor carbines I have seen have been cut down rifles.

I am no expert and can't tell which is which, but I would not get too excited yet.

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[zinfull]

The trap door looks good. It does not look like a cut down because there is not a swivel bracket on the trigger guard. You do not want the gun to be stamped with the date on the side plate as that would indicate a put together model from later years.

[mrvkamp]

Hard to tell from just the one pic, but that "looks" to be a carbine taper on the barrel (you'd have to measure it to make sure). A cut-down rifle would be different. It also appears to have the proper front sight in the proper location (again, hard to tell from the picture). Often when rifles were cut down they reused the front sight and placed it in the same location as the rifle, which is incorrect for a carbine.

As already stated, there should be a saddle ring on the left side.

A couple of other easy checks would be to make sure that at the forward end of the stock you don't see any indication of a plug in the wood (used to fill the cleaning rod channel). Those can be hard to spot, but you could tell for sure by pulling the barrel to check for the channel.

Also, the rear sight should be marked "C" on the left side (rifle sights were marked "R"), and it should be graduated to 1300 yards (rifles were 1200 due to the difference in the sight-plane)

You'll also want to check for the cartouche on the left side of the wrist. If still present, this will indicate the acceptance date.

Check to see if the 3-piece cleaning rod is in the butt. That would add value.

Bore condition will also have a significant bearing on value.

Also, check to see if the serial number includes a star. That's an armory mark that indicates it was assembled from parts or refurbed.

The Custer range riles are < 43,700. But they hit that in late 1875, and I believe you'll find this is well past that.

You can go here to determine the date.

https://gun-data.com/springfield_trapdoors.html

[rdfact]

Barnwood Arms in Ripon has a Spencer 1865 on consignment for $1,499.

[pitfighter]

Barnwood Arms in Ripon has a Spencer 1865 on consignment for $1,499.

A genuine "saddle ring" carbine or a shortened "rifle" - ?
Difference is a few thousand dollars.
Remember there were three types of Spencers. The Rifle, Carbine and Sporting Rifle, with many rifles being shortened at a later date.
The serial numbers can often be traced to units and dates given.

This is probably common knowledge -

Regardless I did just check to see how far away that store is, that's in my range - !

[rdfact]

A genuine "saddle ring" carbine or a shortened "rifle" - ?
Difference is a few thousand dollars.
Remember there were three types of Spencers. The Rifle, Carbine and Sporting Rifle, with many rifles being shortened at a later date.
The serial numbers can often be traced to units and dates given.

This is probably common knowledge -

Regardless I did just check to see how far away that store is, that's in my range - !

[echo1]

A genuine "saddle ring" carbine or a shortened "rifle" - ?
Difference is a few thousand dollars.
Remember there were three types of Spencers. The Rifle, Carbine and Sporting Rifle, with many rifles being shortened at a later date.
The serial numbers can often be traced to units and dates given.

This is probably common knowledge -

Regardless I did just check to see how far away that store is, that's in my range - !

I'm in there once a week pit if you want me to look for something in particular. PAX