Cabela's will no longer sell C&R guns to CA C&R FFLs *Update - changed*

[dvs762]

Hey. That's how they read the law..

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[capt14k]

I'm sure there is a good summary of the law on here by Librarian but here is a link from Dennis Kroh as well. Antique is an Antique in CA.

https://www.empirearms.com/cal-ffl.htm

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[aghauler]

Who was lowball? Why lowball? Sorry time, please.

"Henry' was/is the guy in charge of the Gun Library, ever try to "sell" him a firearm? They told someone they offered 70% of what they thought they could sell a used firearm for. I don't believe the Visable Loader ( the 90 bucks take it or leave it from Henry and another guy standing there) I sold him even made it to the sale rack. Collector value was considerably more than 90 bucks and he knew it, wouldn't make eye contact with me, and I didn't have time to deal with private sales, so I let them have it.

[Enfield47]

Hey. That's how they read the law..

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Ever wonder why they won't put their opinion of the interpretation of the law in writing? They know they're full of BS and would get called on it in a court of law.

[Nevada Hudson]

Erick Zander sees to be the go-to guy there.

That's not the guy who is about 6'8 tall?

[aghauler]

Ever wonder why they won't put their opinion of the interpretation of the law in writing? They know they're full of BS and would get called on it in a court of law.

Well they used to answer in writing questions sent to them via USPS, but not any longer!

[ke6guj]

So if we live in Nevada, can we cash and carry a C&R gun purchased in California?

yes, if you are buying from a CA dealer and you have an 03 FFL.

Section 26500 does not apply to any sale, delivery, or transfer of firearms that satisfies all of the following requirements:
(a) It is made by a manufacturer, importer, or wholesaler licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(b) It is made to a person who resides outside this state and is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(c) It is made in accordance with Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

it would not apply to transactions between a CA 03 and an out-of-state 03.

[ke6guj]

In my experience, even very good, C&R knowledgeable/friendly CA 01 FFLs don't do transfers to 03 FFLs unless a DROS is done. Even if they do not require a 4473 because a federal 'bound book to bound book' transfer is done, IIRC CA law requires 01 FFLs to DROS unless going to another 01/07 FFL, and even then a CFLC approval is required if the receiving FFL is based in CA.

It is a good question, one that I'd ask in the FFL forum and/or the Legal forum. There are probably nuanced scenarios where the answer varies, the FFLs would probably know more in the FFL subforum.

there is an exemption to the DROS requirement for a CA 01 to sell a C&R gun to an out-of-state 03.

Section 26500 does not apply to any sale, delivery, or transfer of firearms that satisfies all of the following requirements:
(a) It is made by a manufacturer, importer, or wholesaler licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(b) It is made to a person who resides outside this state and is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(c) It is made in accordance with Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

[DrewN]

"Henry' was/is the guy in charge of the Gun Library, ever try to "sell" him a firearm? They told someone they offered 70% of what they thought they could sell a used firearm for. I don't believe the Visable Loader ( the 90 bucks take it or leave it from Henry and another guy standing there) I sold him even made it to the sale rack. Collector value was considerably more than 90 bucks and he knew it, wouldn't make eye contact with me, and I didn't have time to deal with private sales, so I let them have it.

And this is bad somehow? That's how businesses make money. Haven't you ever traded in a car?

[SkyHawk]

there is an exemption to the DROS requirement for a CA 01 to sell a C&R gun to an out-of-state 03.

Section 26500 does not apply to any sale, delivery, or transfer of firearms that satisfies all of the following requirements:
(a) It is made by a manufacturer, importer, or wholesaler licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(b) It is made to a person who resides outside this state and is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(c) It is made in accordance with Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

But that (PC 26550) says the sale/transfer must be made by a "manufacturer, importer, or wholesaler licensed pursuant to Chapter 44" - does one of those classifications cover a regular old 01 FFL?

I could not find a definition of wholesaler in Fed law, but I did find an old AB (not sure if passed) that defined it:

ftp://leginfo.ca.gov/pub/05-06/bill/..._sen_comm.html

13)Defines "wholesaler" and allows a wholesaler to engage in
various commercial activities without having his or her
activities subject to state dealer licensing and dealer
requirements. (Penal Code 12001, 12070, 12073, and
12078.)

I thought a wholesaler would be someone on the CLEFFL list, not a regular dealer with 01 FFL.

This document showed what 'wholesaler' exemptions were to be listed on CLEFFL would be:

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/infobuls/2008-BOF-01.pdf

It looks like a wholesaler is someone who sells to dealers, to other wholesalers, or to out of state FFLs.

For instance, PC26535 distinguishes between dealer and wholesaler:

It is made to a dealer or wholesaler.

as does 26560:

Section 26500 does not apply to any sale, delivery, or transfer of firearms by a wholesaler to a dealer.

So it seems 'dealer' and 'wholesaler' are different things. I don't see an exemption for a 'dealer' to take advantage of PC26550, only manufacturers, importers, or wholesalers. Otherwise it should also say 'dealer'?

[ke6guj]

But that (PC 26550) says the sale/transfer must be made by a "manufacturer, importer, or wholesaler licensed pursuant to Chapter 44" - does one of those classifications cover a regular old 01 FFL?

I glossed over "wholesaler". I read that as dealer. BATF doesn't even have a license for "wholesalers".

Type 1 Dealer in Firearms Other Than destructive device (Includes Gunsmiths) Title 1 dealer or gunsmith other than destructive devices. Can also deal in Title 2 (NFA) firearms with an SOT Class 3 status.
Type 2 Pawnbroker in Firearms Other Than Destructive Devices Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker.
Type 3 Collector of Curios and Relics Licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms.
Type 6 Manufacturer of Ammunition for Firearms Licensed manufacturer of ammunition and reloading components other than ammunition for destructive devices and armor-piercing ammunition.
Type 7 Manufacturer of Firearms Other Than Destructive Devices Title 1 manufacturer of firearms and ammunition, who may also act as dealer; may not manufacture or deal in destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, or armor-piercing ammunition. Can also manufacture & deal in Title 2 (NFA) firearms with an SOT Class 2 status.
Type 8 Importer of Firearms Other Than Destructive Devices Importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition. Can also import Title II (NFA) firearms with an SOT Class 1 status.
Type 9 Dealer in Destructive Devices Dealer in firearms, including destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, and armor-piercing ammunition. Requires payment as an SOT Class 3 (can act as an NFA Dealer). To deal/broker any DD with an explosives content (e.g. flash-bangs) requires an additional Federal Explosives License[2] as a Dealer of High Explosives.
Type 10 Manufacturer of Destructive Devices Manufacturer of firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, manufacturer of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, and armor-piercing ammunition; may also deal in all of the aforementioned items. Requires payment as an SOT Class 2 (can act as an NFA Dealer). To manufacture any DD with an explosives content (e.g. flash-bangs) requires an additional FEL[2] as a Type 20 Manufacturer of High Explosives.
Type 11 Importer of Destructive Devices Importer of firearms, ammunition, destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, and armor-piercing ammunition; may also deal in all the aforementioned items. Requires payment as an SOT Class 1. To import any DD with an explosives content (e.g. flash-bangs), requires an additional FEL[2] as an Importer of High Explosives.


I knew the exemption existed for non-DROS sales to out-of-state 03's, will need to look further to see if there is another exemption in the code I missed or if that one covers it.

[dvs762]

They read some PC code to me about it. I was kind of busy but that was the ruling according to them..

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[SkyHawk]

I glossed over "wholesaler". I read that as dealer. BATF doesn't even have a license for "wholesalers".

Yes, as per usual, CA makes it up as they go along. They co-mingle concepts from Fed law and CA law in a way that makes no sense and compliance difficult. It is either inept or genius.

Because as you noted, there is no license for 'wholesaler' defined in 18 USC 44 and ATF doesn't issue them. It is a term that CA only uses in various firearms laws, and it seems to have some sort of difference from 'dealer' but who the heck knows what the distinction is, or when or where it applies.

[dvs762]

True but they are the ones with the deep pockets and lawyers up the kazoo to go after people like me who can't fight back.

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[aghauler]

And this is bad somehow? That's how businesses make money. Haven't you ever traded in a car?

Yes I know very well how to play the game, when I was a 01 FFL 1985-1995 I never low balled a client or talked their firearm down to get them to a "take it or leave it deal" like I was doing them a favor, I showed them book value and what I would allow as trade in value to wards there purchase which was 10% above MY purchase price. No one ever felt "screwed or taken advantage of" everyone felt satisfied with the deal and came back for more!