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Using a C&R to Deal in Firearms?!!

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  • milsurplover
    Member
    • Aug 2006
    • 105

    Using a C&R to Deal in Firearms?!!

    The following was posted on a popular, free advertising web site. Check out the third to last paragraph (cut and pasted following my intro here) where this C&R holder is offering to sell firearms to anyone. What do y'all think? I e-mailed and told him I thought he was not understanding the purpose and regulations regarding a C&R. He told me to "Frig Off." Am I missing something here?
    ===================================
    As it's greater than 50 years old it doesn't need to pass through an FFL. I sell directly to you. No nonsense, 10 day wait, FFL fees, etc. You give me the money (no checks obviously, I give you the rifle). I copy down your driver's license info for my C&R records. You leave with the rifle. Where else in California can you get a rifle same day? And this is better than most modern rifles in my opinion.

    ===================================

    For sale is a Winchester M1 Garand.

    It's USGI in the original 30.06 caliber. If you don't already know you need to shoot M2 ball surplus or M2 ball spec ammo through this. It's not recommended to shoot modern 30.06 ammo unless it's loaded to spec. I know people do, but they're foolish...I'm just telling you what's recommended for you and your rifle. And anyway, surplus M2 ball is much cheaper than buying modern hunting ammo.

    Price 850. Photos are below. I might consider trades, but it's unlikely. Since I have a C&R license I can get the things I'm interested in for less than many people think theirs are worth. But we can always see. Here's what I might be interested in... M1 Carbines (no commercial ones, only USGI), Russian SKS, Romanian SKS, Chinese SKS (only if it's a military one with a screwed barrel and milled parts, no pinned/stamped), Yugo SKS, Hakim, FN-49...maybe other C&Rs...ask me. Also possibly moderns...Stainless GP-100, AR-15 uppers (only chrome lined, no junk like Model 1), California legal FAL-type rifles, Ruger 10/22, maybe a bolt action 10/22, .357 lever gun, 12 or 20 gauge riot gun (18.5 - 22 inch barrel...prefer 870s and 590s). Well, I can't make a complete list. You could always ask me. No trades for anything other than firearms.

    USGI (United States Government Issue) Garands were made by four manufacturers: Springfield Armory*, Winchester, International Harvester, and Harrington and Richardson. As you can see at the bottom Springfield Armory made the most and the other 3 much fewer.

    *Springfield Armory and Springfield Armory Inc are NOT the same. Springfield Armory was a government arsenal making USGI arms. Springfield Armory Inc is a commercial outfit with no connection other than they used the same name. Sprinfield Armory Inc. makes 'new' Garands and M1As which use cast parts and are in my opinion inferior to Springfield Armory. The government Springfield Armory has not made a Garand since the 1950s. The modern Springfield Aromory Inc Garands have no collectible value while the real USGI ones are a piece of history. Ok, enough of that.

    I am selling a Winchester Garand. This is fully USGI.

    Receiver is Winchester.

    Trigger group is Winchester.

    Barrel is Springfield Armory 1953.

    This rifle came from the CMP and is not import marked.

    It's seen some use and the bore/muzzle are worn. Rifling is still present and it should make a decent plinker now/fun range gun. You could always have it rebarelled with a USGI contour 30.06 or .308 barrel and make it into a more accurate shooter. Fulton Armory offers this. Rifle has seen lots of wear, but as this is forged steel it's functional and useable. Or just keep as is. They aren't making anymore Garands...not any real ones anyway. Haven't since the 1950s.

    As it's greater than 50 years old it doesn't need to pass through an FFL. I sell directly to you. No nonsense, 10 day wait, FFL fees, etc. You give me the money (no checks obviously, I give you the rifle). I copy down your driver's license info for my C&R records. You leave with the rifle. Where else in California can you get a rifle same day? And this is better than most modern rifles in my opinion.

    Besides, this is American military history.

    Let me know if interested. Transfer only in Rohnert Park or nearby. Mapquest it before contacting me. Rohnert Park is one hour and 10 minutes north of the Golden Gate Bridge (on the 101). That's without traffic. Thanks
  • #2
    chiefcrash
    Internet Dictator
    CGN Contributor - Lifetime
    • Jul 2006
    • 3408

    well, he is entitled to sell a rifle, just not as a buisness. if he's selling this one and only rifle, he's fine. if he only sells a few, he's fine. as long as it doesn't become his livelyhood...
    Originally posted by Kestryll
    we can not nor should not dismiss or discount my theory that in the dark of night you molest sea anemones by candlelight.
    Originally posted by TKM
    Show me on this 1st Amendment bobble-head doll where the mods touched you.
    Originally posted by Click Boom
    It is clear from this thread that citadel grad was the gunman, and Oswald his patsy.

    Comment

    • #3
      milsurplover
      Member
      • Aug 2006
      • 105

      Also read the paragraph starting with "Price 850." He's soliciting people to buy other rifles he doesn't appear to even own. That is my main point. He's specifically ruled out trading and doesn't appear to be culling a collection.

      Comment

      • #4
        chiefcrash
        Internet Dictator
        CGN Contributor - Lifetime
        • Jul 2006
        • 3408

        Originally posted by milsurplover
        Also read the paragraph starting with "Price 850." He's soliciting people to buy other rifles he doesn't appear to even own. That is my main point. He's specifically ruled out trading and doesn't appear to be culling a collection.
        no, he's listing rifles he MIGHT trade for, not soliciting people to buy them

        granted, he doesn't appear to be culling a collection, but from the wording he's not conducting a buisness either.

        he's shady, that's for sure...
        Originally posted by Kestryll
        we can not nor should not dismiss or discount my theory that in the dark of night you molest sea anemones by candlelight.
        Originally posted by TKM
        Show me on this 1st Amendment bobble-head doll where the mods touched you.
        Originally posted by Click Boom
        It is clear from this thread that citadel grad was the gunman, and Oswald his patsy.

        Comment

        • #5
          JPglee1
          Veteran Member
          • Jan 2006
          • 3025

          He's advertising a F-2-F sale of a pre 1956 long gun.

          100% legal to do in this state, and one of the reasons I love M1 Garands, 1903s, Pre-56 Russian SKS, M1 Carbines, etc...


          J

          Comment

          • #6
            CalGunsNoob
            Member
            • Jan 2006
            • 183

            You're missing something. It's legal in California to sell a rifle greater than 50 years of age without going through an FFL. he's also not soliciting sales on a rifle he doesn't have. He's selling one rifle or asking for trades. You should re-read the paragraph.

            People often get confused on this because if a rifle is in a dealer's inventory it's required to be DROSd. If it is sent from out of state it is required to either be DROSd or sent to to a C&R.

            However, it is perfectly legal in California for one private party to sell another private party to sell a rifle greater than 50 year than 50 years of age without going through an FFL.

            Furthermore, buying and selling items in one's collection does not constitute running a business. Most serious C&R collectors buy and sell to enhance their collections. Seems like many of the trade items he's seeking are C&Rs. Looks like a collector to me. And anyway, it doesn't matter. As stated above it's legal to sell the rifle as he's doing.

            As you can see from the ad the price is $850 or trades for those other items. Nothing shady at all here.

            Go to www.gunboards.com to see C&R collectors in action. Many C&R guys do this routinely.

            Now, as to whether the price of $850 is worth the Garand...well, depends largely on the condition. Winchester command more of a premium. You'd have to see the rifle and evaluate.
            Last edited by CalGunsNoob; 08-02-2006, 6:10 PM.

            Comment

            • #7
              CalGunsNoob
              Member
              • Jan 2006
              • 183

              Here's a link on the DOJ's website regarding the exemption for 50 years plus...

              I need to print this out.

              Comment

              • #8
                Pthfndr
                In Memoriam
                • Oct 2005
                • 3691

                Originally posted by milsurplover
                What do y'all think?
                I think you were out of line to email someone you (presumably) don't know, out of the clear blue, and tell them they don't know what they're doing.

                I also think, like the others said, that you needed to read his posting more thoroughly.
                Rob Thomas - Match Director NCPPRC Tactical Long Range Match

                Match Director Sac Valley Vintage Military Rifle Long Range Match

                Comment

                • #9
                  ja391
                  Member
                  • Jan 2006
                  • 100

                  You mind want to read the info in this thread

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Joe Register
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2006
                    • 1309

                    What is the problem?

                    He is selling a single rifle over 50 years old. It is fairly well described and the price is within a reasonable range. In this case the C&R just puts an extra burden on him because if he didn't have one he wouldn't need to log your information. I took what he was saying as "don't offer me a Turk mauser for $200 worth of trade value when I can buy a five pack of the same from Century at that price.

                    Now if he said send me $200 and I will order you a Turk mauser then he is potentially asking for trouble.

                    Perhaps the experts disagree but I do not see it.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      snafu510
                      Member
                      • Jun 2006
                      • 337

                      He had another one one a few weeks ago. He started pretty high and only leaves the post up for a day or so. Reposts every few days. Eventually it got down to $395 I think. It was not as nice as this one though. His presentation turns me off a little.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        thisismyboomstick
                        Member
                        • Dec 2005
                        • 389

                        Originally posted by milsurplover
                        He told me to "Frig Off."
                        I would have told you the same thing.

                        People need to learn to mind their own business.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          50 Freak
                          Veteran Member
                          • Oct 2005
                          • 3412

                          Milsurp,

                          Bite the bullet and send an apology e-mail. Tell him you were just trying to look out for a fellow gun nut but unfortunately you were wrong....No hard feelings...
                          I'm Rick James...Be-otch!!!!

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            milsurplover
                            Member
                            • Aug 2006
                            • 105

                            Ok...thanks to all for the suggestions and (advice). Everyone gave good info: save for "Boom stick." And special thanks 50 Freak for the encouragement to do the right thing - I'll do that.

                            My impetus for asking (original intention) may have been more clear if I posted some of the follow-on solicitations I received to the effect of "tell me what you want and i can get it for you without any hassle/paperwork." I was under the idea that a C&R isn't intended for making sales on a regular and ongoing basis/advertsing. Guess things may be different in CA than where I live (which is weird cause I hear CA has some strict regs.) Whatever.

                            To be sure I don't live there so my bad.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              whatever
                              Member
                              • Sep 2002
                              • 281

                              The guy you are writing about is a frequent poster here. In fact he has been posting about how much he has been getting M1's from the CMP. Another fact is he's also now posting about how eager he is to buy from the CMP at the Reno gunshow.

                              Regardless of the C&R bit, I thought it was a no-no to sell your CMP guns, especially at higher than CMP prices.

                              On the surface it looks like he's conducting some very rapid culling of his collection, buying numerous rifles, selling the worst examples at a profit.

                              I noticed his ads too on craigslist and wondered about it. It's not a way I would conduct myself and definitely not a way I would phrase my ads.

                              Comment

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