Lets see your .223 California Legal Self Loading Rifle!

[billdoodoo]

My Turn!

I'm gonna have a KAC rifle one day and I will blame all of you posting pics of your KAC uppers if I go broke

[JohnnyRooks]

very nice jeffu..

[Jeffu]

My Turn!

[Kestryll]

*AHEM*....

PICTURE thread, remember?

There is a whole forum just for discussion.

[tacticalcity]

My Freedom!

I like the flag.

[tacticalcity]

so you're comparing the techniques of 2 Yuba City SWAT members vs. combat proven members of MARSOC and DELTA? maybe we need SOCOM to send our tier 1 guys to take classes from Yuba City SWAT!

(btw, both Magpul and Vickers teachings include the importance of skeletal structure with regards to shooting. please refrain from comparison if you've never taken their classes.)

No, not at all. I was citing one example amongst many of professionals who took issue with it. Don't twist what I said just because you have a different view point. You and I get along pretty well. Just because I disogree with you on one minor aspect of our shooting techniques is no reason to get rude.

In any case, lets keep Kes happy and move this discussion here if you wish to comment further. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=359519

I have no problem having a nice friendly debat on this or anything else. Keyword being friendly.

[tacticalcity]

Aftermath686 - Don't shoot the messenger. No reason to get all upset about it and start the name calling. We're just having a discussion here. If you don't agree you don't agree.



Ironically, my hand placement ends up only about one, maybe one and half handwidths further back than yours would on this build. That is where is is most comfortable for me and allows me to better control and support the rifle. Bear in mind I am 5'8" tall with relatively short arms. So it is not like you're drastically extended out further than I am...at least not on this build. If you're a 6' tall guy with freakishly long arms...then we're basically doing the same thing and arguing over nothing. I still index the grip and keep my thumb inline with but slightly over he bore. We hold the rifle the same way, I'm just not extended as far forward.

Lets move this discussion here. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=359519

[Jeffu]

hahahahah very nice!!! what happened to your enhanced buttpad?

I am not going to bother with a new thread as I feel it probably wont go very far. I really am not trying to come off as an ***, but some of your statements are extremely uneducated.

Saying that the teachings of MD+LAV are not proven is absolute blasphemy. These gentlemen have been in more gunfights than you would care to imagine. There teachings are by no means meant for competition, although some of the techniques may have stemmed from there, they are 100% focused on coming out on top of a gunfight in any hostile situation. Be it .Mil, LEO, or Civilian. I would strongly advise taking some classes from both to fully understand the principles they teach.

Try not to loose the point in Jerry's jest, as it is an extremely important one. Even though someone is SWAT really doesn't mean that they are the be-all end-all of tactics and weapon manipulation. I have said this exact thing many times before and I will quote myself again from just a few pages back. Please keep in mind that in no way do I mean this in a derogatory manner.


Picture for thread, trying out the Jeffu style:

[Capita159]

Picture for thread, trying out the Jeffu style:

you need more vignetting..... easily done from PS-CS5
nice set BTW

If I can scare off all the people that is living around me, I too can have a peaceful open range. But then again, I can just come to your spot and intrude.
Anyways, that is an nice picture. The landscape calls for great photography and rifling.

[nikonuser]

Hitting steel targets at 500 yards with my fave - LWRC M6A3 with Trijicon TR24

[Aftermath686]

Sorry guys, but it is NOT a question of conditioning. The most in shape person in the world will tire out if he is using all muscle, and no bone for a prolonged period of time. Bear in mind I am talking about being in the low ready most of the time and NOT being pointed in or at a high ready as that is poor technique as well. So while you see my moving my hand/arm further back in order to better support the rifle's weight as compromising accuracy and control, I see your not doing so as compromising accuracy and control. Because if you are completely fatigued when the time comes...you won't have either.
My priority is making sure that when the time comes to actually bring my weapon to bear and fire I still have the stamina, strength and speed to be as effective and efficient as I can be. I don't want to leave my A-game way back at two hours into an 8 hour standoff during which I have been waiting behind the gunman's location at the low ready waiting for the negotiator to stop blabbing and give me the go order. Can't let it hang, because that's not covering the rear exit. Got keep the door covered, which means rifle in hand and bearing at least some of its weight. Can't move my hand further back to rest it, because if I have to shoot my hand is now in completely different position from where it has been for the last couple years of training and it will throw me off and I might hit a hostage. And on and on...though admitadly I'll never be in that situation but my instructors who are SWAT members have been on more than one occassion.
It is the difference between theory and actual practice.I tried both during several days of 8 hours of training a day and determined the cost vs. reward was way too high and that by moving the grip the rear of the carbine length handguard, and still indexing it the way you do rather than using it like a broom handle, my hand falls directly in the middle of the handguard. After considerable trial and error and a great many rounds down range in as close to real world conditions as I could make the training be, that worked best for me.
This opinion was further backed up by the instructors, both of whom are active Yuba City SWAT team members. The brought up the example of a standoff of why using skeletal structure is important and why the Magpul/Vickers technique fails to measure up to real world applications.
I am not advocated the magwell grip or using the broom handle grip. I am just arguing against gripping so far forward your arm is practical straight and all the work is being done by your muscles. For short periods of time, like a competition, it is fine. However, for training and prolonged situations where you're supporting the rifle for hours on end (or whet ends up being the equevilent there of when added up) it fails to impress. Those situations come up in the real world all the time. Even if it were just a training issue, you only fight half as well as your last training session. So that matters too.
In any case, this is a really off topic debate for the picture thread, so I am going to just leave you with this...
If you guys want to debate it futher start a seperate thread and PM with the link. While we disogree it has thus far been a very friendly exchange of ideas and I would be happy to continue the debate. I am not sure what more I can add to it, other than I really did try several different positions and techniques and found my way works best for me for the reasons stated. If the way you use your rifle is different, and your needs and priorities are different, then I can see how your way would work for you. Nothing wrong with that. Heck even if your arms are different, as in freakishly long compared to mine which are relatively short I can see how it work better for you than for me. Just figured my experience might be food for thought.

I am not going to bother with a new thread as I feel it probably wont go very far. I really am not trying to come off as an ***, but some of your statements are extremely uneducated.

Saying that the teachings of MD+LAV are not proven is absolute blasphemy. These gentlemen have been in more gunfights than you would care to imagine. There teachings are by no means meant for competition, although some of the techniques may have stemmed from there, they are 100% focused on coming out on top of a gunfight in any hostile situation. Be it .Mil, LEO, or Civilian. I would strongly advise taking some classes from both to fully understand the principles they teach.

so you're comparing the techniques of 2 Yuba City SWAT members vs. combat proven members of MARSOC and DELTA? maybe we need SOCOM to send our tier 1 guys to take classes from Yuba City SWAT!
(btw, both Magpul and Vickers teachings include the importance of skeletal structure with regards to shooting. please refrain from comparison if you've never taken their classes.)

Try not to loose the point in Jerry's jest, as it is an extremely important one. Even though someone is SWAT really doesn't mean that they are the be-all end-all of tactics and weapon manipulation. I have said this exact thing many times before and I will quote myself again from just a few pages back.

Just because someone is LEO or Mil, doesn't mean that they know what they are doing. I have trained/served with a plethora of Mil and LEOs who don't know diddly squat about the firearms they are using, or how to properly employ them. It's actually a minority, in both cases, that are really locked on.

Please keep in mind that in no way do I mean this in a derogatory manner.


Picture for thread, trying out the Jeffu style:

[sardaukar]

Nice picture!

[Capita159]

My Freedom!

[Gio]

^^^

Very nice

Here are some from today, unfortunately I will be parting with her soon unless I get a job

[dj_dub]

Almost done, about 95%...just waiting on a few items to complete this Noveske build:

- Aimpoint Comp M3 w/Dark Earth Brown Cover
- LaRue Tactical Cantilever Optic Mount LT-129
- Magpul 10/30 FDE PMAGs w/Ranger Plates