Would you trust your life with a 9" Pistol Upper in a gunfight

[tiger222]

An AR 223 pistol is not a real world defensive / gun fight use recommended item, imho.

1: It's a 100m gun with a short bbl.
2: concussion will be deafening to you and others
3: flash suppression more difficult if at night.

What is a gunfight? CQB only or urban 50-300m ranges? or desert scrub to 800m? The only place the pistol might have an advantage is CQB, and fair in #2 and worthless in #3

If you want short and sexy, get a 223 bullpup with a 18"-20" bbl. If you want a pistol for a house clearing, get a good combat pistol and train with it. Otherwise learn to use a 16" AR and enjoy.

My go to is a 9mm carbine for many reasons.

[Jimi Jah]

If my 7.5" doesn't make a big enough hole, it will deafen a bad guy.

[Dezrat]

I, personally, love the method by which most people on here seem to determine the terminal ballistics of any rifle/ammo combo they choose to use. Forget about math and physics, I 'hit gongs all day long at 300 yards' and 'ring steel super loud all day long'.

Let's just apply a little math to this problem.

Mk262 fails to fragment under about 2100 fps, and M193 fails to fragment under about 2600 fps.

If we believe what This site has to say, you can expect 2600 fps from a 55 grain projectile out of a 10 inch barrel at .223 pressures. There's no data for a 77 grain load, but assuming you can move it at 2700 fps out of a 20 inch barrel, let's assume you lose 25 fps/inch, we're losing 250 fps moving to the 10 inch barrel. That's a muzzle velocity of 2450.

Plugging those numbers into jbm, you cross under 2100 fps at about 175 yards with about 770 ft/lbs of energy.

Would I want to stand in front of either of them? No. If I had to choose one to be shot with, I'd choose the short barrel with M193 as it would be the one most likely to pencil through.

How about at 150 yards? I'd still rather be in front of the 55 grain bullet, as it would likely pencil through AND have less energy (not that it matters much if there is no expansion or fragmentation), as such without a CNS hit my chances of making it to a hospital and recovering are greatly enhanced.

Would I hunt deer with either of those? Not on purpose. I've never hunted with fragmenting ammo and the penetration numbers I see from Mk262 don't make me think it would be useful for anything other than broadside lung shots under 150 yards.

I think the point that many are trying to make here is that no one is confined to "NATO" bullets/loads that many keep base lining from here. Confusing how many feel they must think around the NATO 5.56 loads when they would never consider say the NATO 9mm full metal jacket load for their defensive handguns. If we limited the 9mm by the same rationale, the 9mm could be argued as quite a silly choice for defensive purposes. There are 5.56 bullets that perform(expand) quite reliably and impressively all the way down to 1900 fps.

[.45 ACP]

using an AR pistol in a real fight would be a NIGHTMARE

Right. The SEALs who shot Bin Laden dead had a real nightmare taking him and his bodyguards out.

[.45 ACP]

They use those weapons when they plan to be clearing rooms or the inside of commercial passenger airplanes, where maneuvering is more important than reliable fragmentation at 150 yards. 2,600 fps starting velocity means no fragmentation by the time you get to 50 yards. OBL was shot at less than 10 yards, by all accounts. Those "Operators" you are talking about bring a longer barreled weapon if they plan to shoot at 150 yards, at least, if they have any say in it.

Uh, so Navy SEALs have short barrelled weapons to clear rooms because it's not lethal?

Go ahead. Stand in front of a AR with a 10.5 inch barrel at 150 yards since it's so ineffective. Let's see how well you're able to stand up to a double tap. My bet is you either expire shortly after, or feel the effects for the rest of your life.

[.45 ACP]

They also have ready access to rounds like the Mk. 262, which is firing a 77gr. OTM bullet that fragments reliably at much lower velocities, and the Mk. 318, which is of similar construction as the Federal Trophy Bonded Tip line.

Both will fragment/expand more reliably than m193 and m855/A1 at low velocity, although the reports are saying that the M855A1 is performing well terminally, at least better than M855, even though it is beating the crap out of guns.

So you're saying we as civilians can't get ammo that will fragment out of a 10.5 inch barrel readily and easily? I know you're super duper wrong. But let's make this fun.

How about we make a bet. I bet you I can get said ammo legally and very easily, and heck, I'll even test it out for you on some press cardboard targets and take pictures, if I win you paypal gift me $2000. If I can't, I paypal you $2000. You game?

[NapalmCheese]

I think the point that many are trying to make here is that no one is confined to "NATO" bullets/loads that many keep base lining from here. Confusing how many feel they must think around the NATO 5.56 loads when they would never consider say the NATO 9mm full metal jacket load for their defensive handguns. If we limited the 9mm by the same rationale, the 9mm could be argued as quite a silly choice for defensive purposes. There are 5.56 bullets that perform(expand) quite reliably and impressively all the way down to 1900 fps.

But on calguns, no one likes anything if it's not used by the military! Not to mention that so many people here think that the only way to kill living targets is with fragmenting ammo.

This thread on m4carbine.net has the supposed response from Federal saying that their 62 grain fusion projectile should expand out to 1350 fps. Assuming we want good expansion, let's call it 1700 fps minimum velocity (by good expansion I mean opening up to wider than caliber, not just the tip mushrooming to .224 diameter).

The standard Federal Fusion .223 has a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps (probably out of a 24 inch test barrel). Assuming a loss of 25 fps/inch that's a velocity of 2650 out of a 10 inch barrel. The Fusion MSR (optimized for 16-20 inch barrels they say) has a muzzle velocity of 2750, giving approximately 2500 fps out of the 10 inch barrel.

The fusion bullet supposedly has a BC of .310, and at 2550 fps muzzle velocity (which could be achievable out of a 10 inch barrel) and assuming an expansion threshold of 1700 fps, you're looking at an expanding bullet out to 400 yards. The only problem now is a lack of energy at that range (translating to a lack of penetration). At 400 yards you're making 400 ft/lbs of energy. On par with some handguns (at the muzzle), but a smaller hole. Obviously closer in the terminal performance should be better.

Without knowing the penetration numbers I wouldn't make any recomendations as to hunting uses, I would think that 150 yard broadside shots on antelope and maybe deer would be alright, better IMO than using fragmenting ammo. While this is not a discussion about hunting, I will add that I'd like to see at least 18 inches of penetration at the VERY minimum for deer.

[TheExiled]

If I knew it ran reliably, certainly.

[vandal]

Make it 300BLK and 9" will be great.

[CK_32]

I just hope all the guys talking about maximum fragmentation limitations of a 10" AR being limited to 75 yards before it's at "useless" velocities.

Realize that the 16" counter parts they are quoting as being much better suited, reach that same "useless" velocity at about 150 yards with that same 55gr bullet. And are confusing the militaries max effective range, with reccomended velocty for optimal fragmentation.

Just because it's not at the perfect velocity to get maximum fragmentation doesn't mean it will not kill. 14.5" barrels have thousands of kills well beyond 300 yards with that "useless" bullet velocity.

FWIW, at the end of the day a bullet is still a bullet weather it's at prefered max velocity or not.

[CK_32]

If my 7.5" doesn't make a big enough hole, it will deafen a bad guy.

According to CalGun reports it should blind them as well. Win/win

[stryper]

Are short AR uppers still a formidable weapon?

Let's say engagement is no longer than 150 yards, and all you have is a Pistol AR 9" upper? Let's assume this is SHTF scenario, you are not in California and you have a full stock, basically an SBR. I think FPS on the short upper is only like 2,000 fps, or less? Isn't the point of a 5.56 to be a high speed, high twist caliber? I see professionals sometimes use the SBR style AR, but I am curious how dangerous/powerful/lethal it is in real world scenario.

Thoughts?

To simply answer your hypothetical question: Yes. Something is better than nothing.

Would it be my "go to" firearm of choice in your scenario: No. Here's why:

In a real world situation (assault, home invasion, active shooter, armed robbery), you don't have the time to think about if the firearm, that hopefully you're carrying, will do the job. You react, and stop the threat. Your location will often dictate what type of firearm you have access to.

If ever a SHTF scenario (WWIII, natural disaster, mass rioting) became reality, most of us here have the proper armament to stop a bad guy at 150yds and beyond. We would be reaching for that weapon(s) that we believe to be the best one for the job. The thing with a SHTF scenario is, you will know it's coming and have the time to react accordingly, given that you have a SHTF plan in place.

It's great to research different types of firearms in order to decide which one would be the best for your tastes in a real world sit or SHTF scenario. Decide what tool is best for you. I have a 7.5" & 10.5" AR pistols, and they both have a place in my "toolbox".

And to be very honest, I don't trust my life with any type of firearm. I trust my training.

Pertaining to terminal ballistics, here's a good read:

http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal.htm

[mrvash]

Are short AR uppers still a formidable weapon?

Let's say engagement is no longer than 150 yards, and all you have is a Pistol AR 9" upper? Let's assume this is SHTF scenario, you are not in California and you have a full stock, basically an SBR. I think FPS on the short upper is only like 2,000 fps, or less? Isn't the point of a 5.56 to be a high speed, high twist caliber? I see professionals sometimes use the SBR style AR, but I am curious how dangerous/powerful/lethal it is in real world scenario.

Thoughts?

I personally think an AR pistol would be effective enough to neutralize a threat at that range. It's still has enough velocity to do it's job.

[Grumpyoldretiredcop]

Answering the OP question as it was phrased, my answer is "Yes, if it were all that I had available, but it wouldn't be my first choice" as I would want to be able to engage effectively at longer ranges.

[evidens83]

SHTF hypothetical threads should be moved to OT along with all the other junk...