Is this acceptable blocking method for 30rd PMAGs

[kkp]

I just slap in the limiter and call it a day. No rivet or epoxy

Love living dangerously?

[CSACANNONEER]

Looks good to me IF you weld the nut to the machine screw.

[kkp]

Looks good to me IF you weld the nut to the machine screw.

Have to be a pretty good welder to do that without melting the plastic body, I would think.

(I say this without much welding knowledge, but I know there would be an element of skill for soldering, too, so I figure welding would be that much worse.)

[DBADRAT]

Rivets are easier and cheaper and works the best. I have some 20 rounder's with blocks and epoxy to seal them from tampering.

[mobbology]

Thank you everyone for all the feedback, I don't have a rivet gun and I think it's time to invest in one now. Just seems more logical rather than question myself going to the range/BLM if this method is "OK"

dude we have the same knife!!!!

Awesome knife isn't it? Love mine!

[CSACANNONEER]

Have to be a pretty good welder to do that without melting the plastic body, I would think.

(I say this without much welding knowledge, but I know there would be an element of skill for soldering, too, so I figure welding would be that much worse.)

It's a hell of a lot easier to just use a pop rivet.

[kkp]

It's a hell of a lot easier to just use a pop rivet.

...Which, obviously, is why that's exactly what I recommended earlier in the thread? I was just responding to the guy who recommended welding the existing screw.

[CSACANNONEER]

...Which, obviously, is why that's exactly what I recommended earlier in the thread? I was just responding to the guy who recommended welding the existing screw.

It was a joke. Hooking up a ground to the screw and trying to weld it without melting the plastic body would not be easy.

[metalliman545]

Some really fishy dude tried to buy rebuilds off me, I told him no, that I would only sell 10/30. I ended up using that screw method, but I also cut the head off the screw so that the actual screw was flush and couldn't be removed. But it also went through a home made mag block, which was just a really thick piece of plastic.

[CWDraco]

The AG / DoJ is clear on this issue. Many people just don't want to trust them or feel they will flip flop on the issue.

They stated they agreed with public opinion that nothing is permanent. They agreed the term is subjective, but reasonable people can understand the meaning in the law.

They explained they had no authority to author a definition of the term nor were they allowed to manufacture a policy surrounding how to alter devices.

There is no legal way to un-alter a magazine. Wore out parts, screw fell out, rivot broke, glue came off. These are all illegal even if not by design. That is critical to understanding the meaning of permanence. If there is any way to un-alter your magazine, its not permanently altered.

In my opinion, and the common sense reasonable person's opinion would be a limiting device placed inside the magazine.

Illegal acts for large capacity magazines-
Sell
Offer to sell
import
MANUFACTURE

Manufacturing is key here. While the alteration of a magazine is an exclusion allowing your magazine to be legal is part of the manufacturing process. If that process fails, you are guilty of manufacturing. There is no "oops" in the law. Even accidental manufacturing is manufacturing.

The relative ease of un-altering can be viewed as improper manufacturing too. One screw that is easy to install is just as easy to remove. Few people (besides me) would support this single screw as permanent. (for myself if I was on a jury I wouldn't vote guilty if you used dried spit I aint voting guilty for any reason, but then again I am unreasonable on this issue, because the law is illegal. I digress)

The safest method is a limiter of some kind on the inside which requires a conscience effort and disassemble to remove, thereby causing the manufacturing re-assembly process to be questioned, not the original design.

I am going to add this here---
If it takes me 1 second to remove a pin or epoxy, is that permanently altered? If it takes me 1 hour to remove that pin or epoxy, is that permanently altered? How long and how much work does it take to void "permanent"? Answer= PERMANENT IS FOREVER . = 1 second and finger power = 10 decades and 1tons of dynamite = NOT PERMANENTLY ALTERED. If it can be undone, its not permanent and never was.

[bruss01]

They stated they agreed with public opinion that nothing is permanent. They agreed the term is subjective, but reasonable people can understand the meaning in the law.

...

There is no legal way to un-alter a magazine. Wore out parts, screw fell out, rivot broke, glue came off. These are all illegal even if not by design. That is critical to understanding the meaning of permanence. If there is any way to un-alter your magazine, its not permanently altered.

...

The safest method is a limiter of some kind on the inside which requires a conscience effort and disassemble to remove, thereby causing the manufacturing re-assembly process to be questioned, not the original design.

It seems like you are contradicting yourself here, or maybe, you are contradicting DOJ? Or they are contradicting themselves.

You said they admit there is no such thing as a "permanent" modification. And then you turn around and state that if there is ANY WAY to un-alter the magazine, it is not "permanent" enough.

I think where you are going with this is saying that a "square one" state for any magazine is in the disassembled state, which is legal. If you assemble a "square one" mag rebuild kit into a configuration which only holds ten rounds, that too is legal, PROVIDED that in order to un-alter the magazine, it would first have to be disassembled to a "square one" state - i.e. it is now a rebuild kit once more. This is accomplished by assembling the magazine with an internal block that would have to be removed, requiring disassembly of the magazine, before any un-altering could take place. Therefore it is the act of "manufacturing a high capacity magazine" that would be illegal, not possession of a magazine that could conceivably be re-manufactured into a high capacity configuration.

Did I (eventually) catch your meaning correctly? If so, let's follow those hypothetical suppositions and see where it leads us...

So let's imagine a magazine with a button, switch, or lever on the outside that flips back and forth between 10 round and 10+ settings. Legal or illegal? ILLEGAL

Now let's imagine a magazine body with a hole drilled in it, and a self-tapping screw inserted such that it blocks the follower from descending past the 10 round capacity point. It can be removed without disassembling the mag. Legal or illegal? ILLEGAL

How about a rivet in place of that screw in the preceding point? Legal or illegal? Under your reasoning above - it can be drilled out without disassembling the magazine... some might say ILLEGAL.

How about with a mag block installed using epoxy to affix the block to the spring? Well, to un-alter that config, at the very least, the mag would have to be disassembled to SQUARE ONE status (legal) prior to any manufacturing of a high capacity configuration magazine... so under your reasoning above... LEGAL

How about with a mag block using NO EPOXY? Well, again, in order to un alter the magazine to a high capacity configuration, the mag would have to be disassembled to a SQUARE ONE state (legal) prior to any manufacturing of a high capacity config mag. So under your reasoning above... LEGAL.

Let me stress that I am not stating that the above line of reasoning is the law... but it represents one understanding of the law as written and commented on by CA DOJ.

At this point, I really think we need a FLOWCHART for magazine legality, similar to the one created for rifles, shotguns and pistols - endorsed by Calguns and distributed to law enforcement agencies around the state, to avoid any potential misunderstandings in the field. Because there are some known "grey areas" the chart would have to have three final destinations... legal, illegal, and "undetermined, consult DOJ".

[MossbergMan]

All this will be moot if the knotheads in Sac-o-tomatos outlaw all standard capacity magazines, regardless of manufacture or purchase date(s).
The ONLY modification that renders a magazine permenently is to chop the body to a 10 round capacity.
Pop rivets can be drilled out- 10 round converted back to standard capacity. It's an illconceived law, selectivly enforced and nearly impossible to understand.
Although the 10/20s and 10/30s look good in an AR, I stick with actual short, ugly dedicated 10 round "non-detachable" mags.
I really resent this state and it's idiotic, wristwringing non-thinking representives.

[MaHoTex]

Although the 10/20s and 10/30s look good in an AR, I stick with actual short, ugly dedicated 10 round "non-detachable" mags.

For me, it is not at all about "looking good", rather, it is about ease of use/functionality. The 20 round mag body is a lot easier to manipulate while fumbling with a "tool" trying to remove the mag. The short 10 rounder is recessed to far making it difficult to grip.

As for the OP, I say a rivet is good to go. That is very similar to what I did.

[mobbology]

Woah! I feel like I am in court and every one has some very very good arguments. This is all really good information and as a student to this forums, I am learning a lot rather than just reading the law and penal codes. I still need to make a contribution to CalGuns very soon. Count on it!

So let's imagine a magazine with a button, switch, or lever on the outside that flips back and forth between 10 round and 10+ settings. Legal or illegal? ILLEGAL

Now let's imagine a magazine body with a hole drilled in it, and a self-tapping screw inserted such that it blocks the follower from descending past the 10 round capacity point. It can be removed without disassembling the mag. Legal or illegal? ILLEGAL

How about a rivet in place of that screw in the preceding point? Legal or illegal? Under your reasoning above - it can be drilled out without disassembling the magazine... some might say ILLEGAL.

How about with a mag block installed using epoxy to affix the block to the spring? Well, to un-alter that config, at the very least, the mag would have to be disassembled to SQUARE ONE status (legal) prior to any manufacturing of a high capacity configuration magazine... so under your reasoning above... LEGAL

How about with a mag block using NO EPOXY? Well, again, in order to un alter the magazine to a high capacity configuration, the mag would have to be disassembled to a SQUARE ONE state (legal) prior to any manufacturing of a high capacity config mag. So under your reasoning above... LEGAL.

Let me stress that I am not stating that the above line of reasoning is the law... but it represents one understanding of the law as written and commented on by CA DOJ.

At this point, I really think we need a FLOWCHART for magazine legality, similar to the one created for rifles, shotguns and pistols - endorsed by Calguns and distributed to law enforcement agencies around the state, to avoid any potential misunderstandings in the field. Because there are some known "grey areas" the chart would have to have three final destinations... legal, illegal, and "undetermined, consult DOJ".

This really does makes sense to me. I really like the idea about having a FLOWCHART for magazine legality.

But let me ask you guys this now. This seems to apply to our rifle mags. I read in another thread that it is totally legit to use Hi-Cap mags with handguns.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=790685

Are the laws different between Rifle vs Handgun?

[bruss01]

For me, it is not at all about "looking good", rather, it is about ease of use/functionality. The 20 round mag body is a lot easier to manipulate while fumbling with a "tool" trying to remove the mag. The short 10 rounder is recessed to far making it difficult to grip.

As for the OP, I say a rivet is good to go. That is very similar to what I did.

Same here... I do not care about appearances, I care about functionality. The ten round magazines I was able to purchase did not work reliably - I don't think the spring travel or *something* is right with them. The most reliable magazines I was able to locate came in 30 round configuration, and I was willing to acquire a block to make them both reliable and legal for my use here.