Questions about AR iron sights

[sb_pete]

Alright all, so I am gearing up to build my first OLL AR. I have alot of questions but for right now I am wondering about the sights. I have tried searching but am having no luck.

Background: I am planning on having an A4 style upper with a free floated handguard. I may or may not mount optics to this eventually but will use QD mounts and plan to shoot this rifle primarily with irons. Along with regular plinking and possibly some varminting, I would like to use it in NRA service rifle match style shooting out to 600 yds.

1. What are the best choices for rear iron sights? I am looking at both (1) folding BUIS style and (2) A4 detachable carry handle style? I would like something that is:

A. finger adjustable for elevation in MOA (preferably 1/4 or 1/2 moa clicks)
B. easy to change apertures from target to standard opening bits (or even one that flips between the two if that exists)
C. Robustness and repeatability of mounting matters (esp in carry handle style), but (A) takes precedence.

2. What about front sights? I am really only planning on using this with either iron sights or longer range optics so a front sight post is fine by me, but I am open to folding front sights if they are gas-port mounted and somehow better than A2/A4 style posts. Suggestions?

Thanks in advance everyone!
-Pete

[DedEye]

Any decent milspec detachable charging handle sounds like it will work for our build. As for #2, a standard front sight should be fine. Less complexity and fewer parts to malfunction and break.

[aplinker]

Fixed front sight.

Service rifle uses specific sights. I'm not a service rifle shooter, you'd need to ask one of them.

Nothing is really better than a true carry handle sight - that's what a folding BUIS is trying to match in functionality. That being said, the flexibility of a folding rear for optics mounting is nice.

If you're serious about future needs of optics, pick a folder. Given that you want to shoot actual varied distances, I'm going to have to switch off the normal pat answer of Troy and push you toward a Knight's Armament 600yd folder. A step down from that is the Matech BUIS.

A Colt carry handle can't be beat if you're not going to mount optics and it will be 1/2 the price of the BUIS. The Matech will run you about $55, $65 will get you a Colt carry handle from CDNN.

[DedEye]

Fixed front sight.

Service rifle uses specific sights. I'm not a service rifle shooter, you'd need to ask one of them.

Nothing is really better than a true carry handle sight - that's what a folding BUIS is trying to match in functionality. That being said, the flexibility of a folding rear for optics mounting is nice.

If you're serious about future needs of optics, pick a folder. Given that you want to shoot actual varied distances, I'm going to have to switch off the normal pat answer of Troy and push you toward a Knight's Armament 600yd folder. A step down from that is the Matech BUIS.

A Colt carry handle can't be beat if you're not going to mount optics and it will be 1/2 the price of the BUIS. The Matech will run you about $55, $65 will get you a Colt carry handle from CDNN.

And if you want the best of both worlds, you can either chop your own BUIS down from a carry handle or buy an LMT rear sight.

[aplinker]

And if you want the best of both worlds, you can either chop your own BUIS down from a carry handle or buy an LMT rear sight.

I'm not sure I'd agree that's the best of both worlds. The best would be a folder that's as good as the A2. Chopping the handle gives room for a red-dot, but it's still obstructing.

[UncleJohnny]

http://www.dlsports.com/ar15_multipurpose_gas_block.html

This is a nice flip up, adj. blade front sight. Even has an adjustable pressure regulator. They even have matching rear, and mid rear buis. Maybe not for everyone though......

[elenius]

Which of the different options have markings like 100yds, 200yds, ... ?

[aplinker]

Which of the different options have markings like 100yds, 200yds, ... ?

All fixed style (carry handle, LaRue, LMT), the KAC and the Matech. Others might also, but I've actually used all of those and can recommend.

[sb_pete]

And if you want the best of both worlds, you can either chop your own BUIS down from a carry handle or buy an LMT rear sight.

I'm not sure I'd agree that's the best of both worlds. The best would be a folder that's as good as the A2. Chopping the handle gives room for a red-dot, but it's still obstructing.

Well, to be honest I'm really not that interested in red dots or holos and wouldn't mind cowitnessing them if I ever did use one. I will eventually get a QD mount and pop a long range scope (4-16x most likely) on and off, but I prefer irons to red dots and while holos may be awesome for CQB with the guys down range, they're not really necessary or cost effective to my needs. That said, I am perfectly ok with a front post as it will only leave a small shadow at 4x and will disappear above that. Because I might be QD mounting an optic down the road, I am interested in folding BUIS's. The front matters less and I am really only interested in things that would somehow work better than a standard A4 post. It sounds like that doesn't exist though, right?

http://www.dlsports.com/ar15_multipu...gas_block.html
This is a nice flip up, adj. blade front sight. Even has an adjustable pressure regulator. They even have matching rear, and mid rear buis. Maybe not for everyone though......

The DLSports stuff looks cool. Thanks for sharing the link, there is a ton of interesting stuff in there. His front sight/adjustable gas block is more than I'm looking for though and also his irons are more directed at being CQB backups whereas I am looking more target sight irons.

Which of the different options have markings like 100yds, 200yds, ... ?

The Knight's armament and the Matech both look great for this. It is not really what I am looking for though. Thanks for letting us know about them though UCLAPlinker, they look like top notch gear. I am really only interested in rear sights that are click adjustable (either finger or bullet-as-a-tool) for MOA in 1/4, 1/2 MOA clicks. Presets for yardage are too limiting for different loads/twist rates for my purposes with the target-oriented rifle I am wanting to build.

Nothing is really better than a true carry handle sight - that's what a folding BUIS is trying to match in functionality. That being said, the flexibility of a folding rear for optics mounting is nice.

If you're serious about future needs of optics, pick a folder. Given that you want to shoot actual varied distances, I'm going to have to switch off the normal pat answer of Troy and push you toward a Knight's Armament 600yd folder. A step down from that is the Matech BUIS.

A Colt carry handle can't be beat if you're not going to mount optics and it will be 1/2 the price of the BUIS. The Matech will run you about $55, $65 will get you a Colt carry handle from CDNN.

I can't find either of those products at CDNN, it's a bit of an unwieldy website though so that could totally be my fault. You don't happen to know the link do you?

The only detachable carry handle sight I can find that specifically says it is 1/4 MOA adjustable for elevation and windage is the Prairie River Arms one being sold by Brownells. The Tapco one might be, but it doesn't really say.

1. What do you guys think the best detachable carry handle sight would be for my purposes and where should I buy it?

2. What about a folding BUIS rear sight that is MOA click adjustable for elevation and windage. Does such a thing exist?

Thanks again guys!
-Pete

[elenius]

I am really only interested in rear sights that are click adjustable (either finger or bullet-as-a-tool) for MOA in 1/4, 1/2 MOA clicks. Presets for yardage are too limiting for different loads/twist rates for my purposes with the target-oriented rifle I am wanting to build.

Oh, but one doesn't exclude the other. I assumed these are like my M1A sights, which are click-adjustable (1 moa clicks in the M1A case), and also have markings (2,3,4,6, I think) at certain click positions. Presumably these are correct for some standard military ammo, but even if they're not, they make it easy to go to different positions. For example, I can remember that my 300 yds settings is at the "3" position plus 2 clicks, instead of having to bottom it out and then bring it up while counting to 20 clicks or whatever.

[aplinker]

Yeah, this has gone in a totally different direction than I'd though.

If you're talking service rifle only, you'll need something completely different.

You mentioned wanting optics in the future. No non-flip sight can be mounted along with a scope. I assumed you wanted red-dot.

You'll need the service rifle shooters in here.

[ocabj]

A3/A4 with the detachable carry handle is legal for NRA and CMP service rifle competition (with a standard A2-style front sight).

As far as a free float handguard, those aren't legal in service rifle competitions if you are referring to the free float handguards like the railed handguards or the varminter style handguards.

Service rifle competition shooters use a free float 'tube' which in turn accepts the standard A2 style handguards.

Here's a picture of a service rifle free float tube (made by CLE):


Here's a picture of the bottom handguard and lead weight installed after the float tube:


Note: If you decide to use any parts not service rifle legal, you can still shoot NRA Across the Course events. You'll simply be put into the "match rifle" category.

I just noticed you are in Santa Barbara. Do you shoot at the Ojai Valley Gun Club? I know they have regular High Power Across the Course matches. If you don't shoot there, definitely check out their facility and/or matches. I am reasonably sure that one of the High Power shooters I know, Nile Ragusin, shoots there. Nile is registered on this board, too.

[Paratus et Vigilans]

If you really want to shoot Service Rifle, you probably ought to consider getting a separate dedicated Service Rifle upper rather than trying to make your A4 flattop do double duty. You'll want a pinned rear sight, which I've never seen on a removable carry handle, and the removable carry handles all have 6/3 elevation wheels while the Service Rifle shooters tend to prefer the 8/3 wheel, which won't fit in a carry handle without drilling out the bottom of the elevation wheel housing. There are also ones made specifically for Service rifle with marks on the elevation wheel for every 5 clicks, but I don't think they'll fit in a carry handle housing. Also, the .223 Wylde is the chambering of choice for most Service Rifle shooters, and I've never seen an A4 chambered that way from the factory - - not that you can't get that changed - - and you're going to want a 1/7 or at the slowest a 1/8 twist barrel for the 80 grain bullets that are the standard from 600 yards.

All in all, you can do what you're thinking of doing, but in the end you're going to be unhappy with it as a Service Rifle, IMHO, so I would really suggest just getting yourself a dedicated Service Rifle upper to go on your lower for CMP matches. Check out White Oak Armament (one of the very best) and look at Rock River Arms, both of which are very popular with Service Rifle shooters. Northern Competition is another popular maker, and of course Bushmaster has an entry as well. I elected to go with White Oak and am very happy with mine.

[sb_pete]

Oh, but one doesn't exclude the other. I assumed these are like my M1A sights, which are click-adjustable (1 moa clicks in the M1A case), and also have markings (2,3,4,6, I think) at certain click positions. Presumably these are correct for some standard military ammo, but even if they're not, they make it easy to go to different positions. For example, I can remember that my 300 yds settings is at the "3" position plus 2 clicks, instead of having to bottom it out and then bring it up while counting to 20 clicks or whatever.

Oh, I hadn't realized that. That would be just fine. I still think I would prefer 1/2 minute clicks, but markings like that would be fine by me. Thanks for the heads up.

In that case look at the Fulton Armory AR15 parts webpage and scroll down to their National Match rear sight assembly for 1/4-1/2 click adjustable rear sights.
AFAIK there are no rear BUIS assemblies with 1/4 or 1/2 click windage adjustments and very few that also provide elevation adjustment.

Hmm, that looks like a good one. Thanks for the info Ted! I am hoping you are wrong about the rear BUIS assemblies but starting to fear you are right

If you're talking service rifle only, you'll need something completely different.
You mentioned wanting optics in the future. No non-flip sight can be mounted along with a scope. I assumed you wanted red-dot.
You'll need the service rifle shooters in here.

Well that's just it actually, I am wanting to go iron sights only for now. In a few months once I have some more cash, I will probably buy a QD mount for the Millett TRS-1 I currently have on my Savage 10fp and upgrade that rifle's scope to the new LRS-1. I don't really have any problem mounting and unmounting a carry handle style sight, but it would obviously be nice if that didn't turn out to be necessary.

Note: If you decide to use any parts not service rifle legal, you can still shoot NRA Across the Course events. You'll simply be put into the "match rifle" category.

I just noticed you are in Santa Barbara. Do you shoot at the Ojai Valley Gun Club? I know they have regular High Power Across the Course matches.

As a matter of fact, I went to Ojai at the beginning of this month for the first time and had so much fun I plan on doing it every month . That is actually why I mention service rifle style shooting. It is pretty informal there and I shot with my Savage 10fp bolt gun last time (will do the same next week I think). Seeing as this is my first AR, I would like something that would serve to shoot there as well as my regular "precision plinking" and what not. Whatever category I am put into doesn't matter too much to me as it's more the personal challenge than any formal competition that really appeals to me at this early stage. If I do end up getting serious about NRA service rifle shooting and such, then I will buy myself a dedicated upper down the road.

If you really want to shoot Service Rifle, you probably ought to consider getting a separate dedicated Service Rifle upper rather than trying to make your A4 flattop do double duty. You'll want a pinned rear sight, which I've never seen on a removable carry handle, and the removable carry handles all have 6/3 elevation wheels while the Service Rifle shooters tend to prefer the 8/3 wheel, which won't fit in a carry handle without drilling out the bottom of the elevation wheel housing. There are also ones made specifically for Service rifle with marks on the elevation wheel for every 5 clicks, but I don't think they'll fit in a carry handle housing. Also, the .223 Wylde is the chambering of choice for most Service Rifle shooters, and I've never seen an A4 chambered that way from the factory - - not that you can't get that changed - - and you're going to want a 1/7 or at the slowest a 1/8 twist barrel for the 80 grain bullets that are the standard from 600 yards.

All in all, you can do what you're thinking of doing, but in the end you're going to be unhappy with it as a Service Rifle, IMHO, so I would really suggest just getting yourself a dedicated Service Rifle upper to go on your lower for CMP matches. Check out White Oak Armament (one of the very best) and look at Rock River Arms, both of which are very popular with Service Rifle shooters. Northern Competition is another popular maker, and of course Bushmaster has an entry as well. I elected to go with White Oak and am very happy with mine.

I hear you on that. I know that what I am building will ultimately be unsatisfactory for service rifle shooting (which will force me to buy yet another gun [or at least another upper] I suppose). Still, it will allow me to dabble in it while still satisfying my need to have something I can mount a scope on and yes, I admit it, I think flat tops just look cool. For my first build, some primal part of me just wants a nice and evil looking black rifle you know?
That said, what I am picturing in my mind at the moment as ideal in terms of uppers is an A4 style flat top with an 18" SS barrel, 1in8" twist, Wylde chambered, with a front post sight, and a free floated quad-rail hand-guard.

For now though I am just looking at my options for iron sights. I am sure that I will post another thread in a week or two when I am onto the next big question in my build.

Thanks again for all the help guys, and please keep any ideas coming regarding MOA click-adjustable iron sights for ARs!

[DedEye]

You should also look at Larue's BUIS if you just want something that can quickly be detached once you get a scope.