Why the HK MP5?

[RobGR]

Seriously?

the Miami Shootout is probably best known for demonstrating that failed tactics, poor planning can all be blamed on one of four calibers used in a shoot out instead of admitting that the whole thing was massive screwup.

People have to realize that sometimes they're going to drop and sometimes they're not going to drop and plan for it.

Yes, tactical blunder by the FBI, who were staking out an area based on a hunch, but the point was simply the fact that the perps were shot multiple times, upper body and face, but continued fighting. There are countless stories about all sorts of different scenarios, but this one was related to the aftermath and development of the 10mm Auto that became the .40 S&W. This in part could have lead to the possible decline of the 9mm rnd as standard issue, even though it wasn't used in this particular incident. Interesting that the backup vehicles with additional agents did have MP5s that were not used b/c they showed up too late. The end.

It's obvious from the ballistics of the 3 main handgun rounds are similar to a degree and when one compares them to a rifle round, they're definitely underpowered. Some people get killed from one .22 bullet and another will live after being shot 10 times by a .45. Like someone said previously, the 9mm, "it's about velocity" and that is dictated by the length of the brl... like every other round out there. I believe the standard side arm of the military is the Beretta M9 and the last time I was at Iron Sights in O'side, I spoke to some jarheads who were practicing for their annual test. They did not seem happy about fielding a 9mm b/c of it's stopping power, they felt the military was simply trying to save money. Whatever, that was just their perspective.

The ballistics gel tests on page 1 don't lie either, but I find this video somewhat compelling in the argument for something else other than 9mm -


Like I also said before, it's an iconic firearm, I would love to own one.

[RobGR]

The Calguns ballistic experts....

HA, there are so many posts about the whole 9mm vs .40 vs .45, google search is infinite on the subject, they don't have to chime in at all b/c it's all been said.

It's an iconic firearm that is recognized the world over. We're just kicking dirt around while at work... at least I am... okay, back to work.

[zombiescanlearn]

+1 well said

[bernieb90]

Longer the barrel, the better the 9mm gets.

Not as much as you think. The MP5 has a ~9" (8.9") barrel, an Beretta 92 has a barrel length of ~5 (4.9"). Most loads will gain ~100fps or so in the MP5 over a pistol this is hardly a massive increase in terminal performance.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9mmluger.html

The reasons the MP5 has fallen out of favor with most SWAT, and SOF units in favor of carbines firing true rifle cartridges have already been mentioned.

One thing not mentioned was that 9mm actually has greater potential lethality after penetrating common building materials than light weight high velocity .223/5.56 loads do. This has become important when inserting multiple teams into a single building. .223/5.56 loads can also be selected to limit the dangers of overpenetration in densely occupied areas like airport terminals, and public venues while bonded loads can be carried in the event vehicles need to be engaged.

The game changed for law enforcement significantly after the North Hollywood shootout. LE organizations quickly realized that pistols, and pistol caliber carbines are useless when the subject is wearing body armor. Now every CHP vehicle has a 5.56 carbine, and LAPD has them issued to supervisors.


Here is a graphic representation of the difference between pistols, and rifles.




5.56 75gr TAP

[advocatusdiaboli]

The reasons the MP5 has fallen out of favor with most SWAT, and SOF units in favor of carbines firing true rifle cartridges have already been mentioned.

I saw this on a YouTube video somewhere and it is apropos (paraphrasing as I don't remember the exact quote):

Rule #1 on how to win a gun fight: Bring a rifle not a pistol if you have a choice. If you can, bring a buddy with one too.

[CHS]

It's not an HK thread unless someone drops this:

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

You're welcome

[tacticalcity]

LEO that were issued Colt SMGs were often jealous they didn't get MP5s instead

That's one of those MAC vs PC debates that has been ragging forever. Most people I've chatted with preferred the MP5 platform, but a few were diehard SMG guys.

[tacticalcity]

It's not an HK thread unless someone drops this:

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

You're welcome

Ah, haters....




There are a few design elements that date back to the CETME that cause issues over time.

Specifically the way it charges into battery.

1. The charging handle makes contact with the cocking tube grinding it to a razor sharp edge over time that will literally slice your hand open while you pull back the charging handle. Deep enough to need stitches...seen it happen.

2. The more you fire it the more you wear down the bolt, as this happens the charging handle becomes stiffer and stiffer. I had a G3 that got so stiff you had to litterally stand on it to get it to charge, yet when you headspaced it with gauges it was within spec. It was technicallly safe to fire, but you had to be Heman to work the charging handle.

3. Fixing the above problems requires a torch and some serious skills. Which for most of us translates to the really old guns becoming nothing more than really cool wall art after a couple decades of use.

That said, when they're new they are beautiful machine.

I want a clone of the MP5K so bad I can taste it...

[advocatusdiaboli]

That's one of those MAC vs PC debates that has been ragging forever. Most people I've chatted with preferred the MP5 platform, but a few were diehard SMG guys.

And the pistol caliber debates, the 5.56 vs 7.62 debates, the "best SHTF rifle" debates, the O&U versus SxS shotgun debates, The single shot (O&U, SXS) versus pump and semi-auto shotgun debates.

Come to think of it, we carry on as many pointless unsettle-able tech debates are computer nerds. Gun nerds. And proud of it.

[advocatusdiaboli]

Ah, haters....

Oh admit it. It is funny. Keep a sense of humor. I know I need to try to do that better.

[chead]

The MP5 is a great gun. It's a special-purpose weapon and it's very good at what it does. It's small, accurate, reliable, and as an SMG has a reasonably high ROF. Put those together and you have the perfect PDW. And of course the K models are just cool looking as heck.

[CHS]

And of course the K models are just cool looking as heck.

Only with the matching briefcase

[Wherryj]

[

A terrible shootout here in Pittsburgh two years ago killed 3 city cops. The cops laid over 2k of 9mm into a brick house where the killer was holed up, and they STILL couldn't shoot THROUGH it It was similar kinds of events all over the country, that got police forces OUT of 9mm and into AR carbines. Pittsburgh just ended up being one of the LAST major metro forces to do so.

.223 is not going to go through a brick let alone a car door without turning into rice. 9mm and .223/5.56 are made to be shot at people ( sorry but this is not a hunting round) that said .223 good out to 300 yards then it really starts to drop off and 9mm is IMHO ment for ranges far closer then .223[/QUOTE]

If shooting through brick walls was the primary concern, why didn't all of the agencies move over to the Bofors recoilless rifle or the RPG?

Even large bore rifles will have trouble penetrating brick.

[bernieb90]

The MP5 is a great gun. It's a special-purpose weapon and it's very good at what it does. It's small, accurate, reliable, and as an SMG has a reasonably high ROF. Put those together and you have the perfect PDW. And of course the K models are just cool looking as heck.

Again the game has changes, and the PDW concept has evolved. When we look at at what a PDW needs to do on the modern battlefield, or in an urban environment limiting ourselves to pistol calibers is a significant handicap.

KAC now has what it probably the most effective PDW on the market. Firing the 6X35mm cartridge. This provides true body armor (IIIA and below) penetrating ability with good intermediate barrier performance, and terminal performance on soft targets.




Of course there is the contraversial P90 (not the PS90) which provides body armor peircing capability, (with LE/Military ammunition) low recoil, and a high rate of fire. Although terminal performance is not very good the system fulfills avery specific requirement for certain agencies like the secret service.

Again I doubt there will be much developement of new 9mm chambered submachinegun, or PDW systems intended for Military or LE use any time in the future. Pistols are pistols, and we use them because they are easy to carry. Adding a few inches to the barrel does not make them rifles.