Why the HK MP5?

[AirborneStranger]

Did body armor becoming much more prolific have anything to do with the MP5 being replaced with SBR's? It seems like in the 80's the bad guys were never wearing any armor whereas nowadays body armor is standard issue for almost everyone.

[Ltfive]

It fires 9mm rounds right? Wouldn't the same argument against the 9mm apply here?

I didn't read the whole thread, so this may have been mentioned. But there are 10mm versions of the MP5, I forget the designation. I shot one years ago at a FBI range. Full auto, it was a handfull! But fun!

[brando]

Did body armor becoming much more prolific have anything to do with the MP5 being replaced with SBR's? It seems like in the 80's the bad guys were never wearing any armor whereas nowadays body armor is standard issue for almost everyone.

That's exactly what I mentioned in my initial post.

Ltfive, yes there was a 10mm version in the early 90s along with the .40SW version, but the 10mm version didn't last. At the time, 10mm was a curiosity but never caught on because it was too high pressure and wore out the weapons prematurely.

[tacticalcity]

I've been reading about the MP5 and I just can't figure out why it's a favorite gun of special forces, et al.

It fires 9mm rounds right? Wouldn't the same argument against the 9mm apply here?

Help me out, I just don't get it.

Well, that tells you alot about the argument against the 9mm. It is based on a one shot one kill world that doesn't exist. It compares individual wound channels and then leaves it at that. It does not take into account that thanks to the lighter recoil, especially in a platform like a full-auto MP5, the speed at which you can create multiple wound channels. Science tells us the human body does a great job dealing with an individual would channel regardless of whether or not it is 9mm or 45ACP. It is when you create multiple wound channels spread out over a decent area that the body goes into shock and shuts down (that or you penetrate a vital organ like the brain or heart which is not always easy to do).

On a side note, this is why in real life hits spaced two inches apart is better than putting all your rounds in same hole. You are getting great accuracy, but you are actually helping his body resist your efforts. Because it can treat them as if it was the same wound channel when they are that close. When working on trigger control it is great to put those rounds right on top of each other. But when training for real life a good hit is a good hit. Dime size groupings are for precision rifles, not CQB. If your target is too pretty you need to speed things up. You are wasting way too much time on accuracy that actually hurts your cause.

The MP5's light recoil allows you to control muzzel lift better than 40S&W and 45ACP versions (excluding Kriss which supposedly rivals the felt recoil while shooting 45ACP but is not as battle proven). Plus it has a very high rate of fire with a large capacity magazine. So you get a boatload of good hits creating decent size wound paths very quickly. Plus, you can trasition from target to target very quickly for the same reasons.

Add to that a small overall size, a stock that can completely collapse in on itself for concealment, and it becomes an ideal CQB/anti-terrorism weapon.

[BitterOldMan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Embassy_siege#SAS_assault

-- Michael

elSquid knows what he is talking about. The SAS operation at No. 16 Princes Gate will forever be remembered as one of the classic hostage rescues of all time. On April 30, 1980, before many of you were born, the SAS armed with MP5s and Browning HP stormed the Iranian Embassy in London. I remember watching the hostage rescue on television. Keep in mind that this hostage rescue operation successfully occurred after the failed Operation Eagle Claw in Iran by the United States on April 24, 1980. So the HK MP5 was forever remembered as the main firearm of the SAS counter-terrorist unit. You young folks need to read a little history.

[Peter W Bush]

I shot an MP5K in Vegas. The target was about 10 yards away. Started the 3 round burst at center mass, and the third shots POI was about 3 inches above that. So in a split second, you get 3 shots at center mass and follow up shots are pretty quick to boot. Combine that with a very compact and lightweight weapon, and you have something really cool.

[brando]

The compactness of the MP5 is another issue that can't be discounted, though this is a common factor in subguns. This is why they were pretty common for TF160 air crews and bike teams up until the mid-90s. The 3-point sling was very handy to strap it to your chest when offroading on motorbikes. Even in Iraq in 2004-2006 they were more handy than M4s when operating in M1114s, GMVs or NTVs (Nissan Patrol & Defender 110s). Best of all, good quality MP5s would turn up in weapons caches from time to time - snag! The only thing is you didn't want to get in any kind of sustained firefight with them. It's very depressing to be surrounded by booming outgoing 5.56mm and 7.62mm when your MP5 sounds like a cap gun in the mix.

Also, look at the new HK 416C - there's a weapon designed for a role that was dominated by the MP5 for many years.

[Ryan in SD]

Longer the barrel, the better the 9mm gets.

[hardluck]

I got the fine privilege of handling & shooting the MP5 last year, full auto & 3 rnd burst. It was a Castro Valley's Police Lt service weapon.
Other than the great info on this thread (very good read by the way) it is one freakin blast to shoot. I highly recommend trying it.
As others have said very accurate & low recoil.
I must say it just puts a DAMN BIG smile on your face!

[advocatusdiaboli]

Yes, the 9mm is definitely considered ineffective when up against the .40 S&W and the .45 rnds.

Sorry but that's total Bravo Sierra and I call it. The calibers and rounds don't battle, the people do. Knowledge, skill, experience, bravery, and planning trump rounds when calibers are that close (i.e. pistol rounds) and 5.56 can hold it's own with 7.56 as our soldiers prove daily in many places around the world. The SEALs that took Bin Laden used 9mm and 5.56. No worries about calibers—it's the operator that counts. Stop obsessing about technology and train. That's your edge to victory. You make the difference not the technology when it's close.

[Code7inOaktown]

Sure, but really, the .40 S&W and .45 ACP is far more likely to drop a man than 9mm, right?

I was recently reading about the 1986 FBI Miami shootout on wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Miami_shootout,_1986) and about the development of the 10mm Auto. It's incredible to read how much it took to stop the perps in the incident. They suffered several wounds, including facial hits, but still managed to keep going, at least enough to take down several agents with them. Reading how they obtained their get-away vehicles is also chilling. However, not trying to start an endless argument about which caliber is better or has more stopping power, it's just interesting to note how and why certain calibers were developed.

Seriously?

the Miami Shootout is probably best known for demonstrating that failed tactics, poor planning can all be blamed on one of four calibers used in a shoot out instead of admitting that the whole thing was massive screwup.

It reminds me of something I read in a gun magazine about 9mm. Some state troopers are in a shootout with a guy on drugs. He's soaking up round after round of 9mm as well as 00 buck shotgun. Guy won't drop, finally some trooper runs up and smacks him on the head with a shotgun while the guy is reloading. Of course the verdict is: 9mm ineffective! Umm, the guy takes a few tubes of 00 buck, and somehow the 9mm is the one that failed? Yet the magic 45 cal round would have dropped him if he it missed him?

People have to realize that sometimes they're going to drop and sometimes they're not going to drop and plan for it.

[JaeOne3345]

The Calguns ballistic experts....

[Jonathan Doe]

I personally prefer Colt SMG. I used it to go through the FBI SWAT school and I liked it a lot. Trigger was better than MP-5 and overall more commfortable to shoot than MP-5. I also saw a federal agent drop the MP-5 on a rock and dented the receiver. The MP-5 went out of service because the bolt wont work with the dented receiver.

[brando]

LEO that were issued Colt SMGs were often jealous they didn't get MP5s instead

[626Tony]

just for the cool factor!